Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 14:59:56 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #53 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. my history with Bruce? (michael tomlinson) 2. The Frog in the Well (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. Re: Mixing Martial Arts (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Mixing Arts (Bruce Sims) 5. Hapkido Ground Fighting (Brooke Thomas) 6. RE: Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing (Jye nigma) 7. blocks and strikes (J R Hilland) 8. only strikes, no blocks (David Weller) 9. Working Out (Randall Sexton) 10. Re: Assinine? (CStovall@nucorar.com) 11. studying to many martial arts (J R Hilland) 12. Mixing Martial Arts (Cory L. Ballinger) 13. RE: Re: Mixing Arts (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:31:16 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] my history with Bruce? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I chimed in on this board because history shows that no matter what the subject involved you some how try to turn it around to involve YOU... Craig posted some great information about working out.. a lot of people were getting stoked about the workout..and doing it. very positive I might add.. and then here comes Bruce with a ton of negativity and now it is all about you... you are right though I wasn't in Boston when you quit on the mat..and disrespectfully cursed at a parent trying to help you with your "injury".. but here are the email addresses of some of the people who were there if anyone has a question about it... you see I know and respect all these people and have sweat and on the mat with all of them....I might also add that I have seen all these students of Master Whalen give their all on the mat without EVER walking off the mat..EVER..I have been on their testing boards and they WILL NOT QUIT... can you say that?? Richard Williamson rjw162@comcast.net Charlette Robichaud Charlette13@msn.com Ray Prince Jan lumpkin vze322dc@verizon.net Elena Finizio Finizio.Elena@dol.gov Maureen Cully mcully@mfs.com Audie Willkinson hapkido1996@yahoo.com Same in Colorado..during the Sin Moo event...Showed up for a day and then left..like a ghost without even telling anyone you were leaving... only to come back to the message boards and bad mouth everyone... If anyone needs info on that Bruce one day event email me and I'll give you the people you can talk to and check out that extravaganza...You are right again Bruce I wasn't there BUT I have done that two day training session with Ji Han Jae at least six times so far...hmmm...NEVER QUIT...you see I also know and train with ALL of them... and again NEVER would any of them EVER quit and disappear from the mat....they would never be that disrespectful... So Bruce this is how I view it... you are quick to talk the talk but you somehow shy away from walking the walk... no problem with that in your world....BUT I think people should know your history on the mat and then they can have a good overall perception of who is making so much noise on here... I love that you guys are working out hard and getting sore and enjoying it... that is the real way.. and that is the place where confidence and happiness is built...not on the keyboard crying louder than the next infant so you can get more attention.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:03:28 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] The Frog in the Well Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has everyone got this version of Zhuang-zi? If not, run out and get it, and maybe the rest of this series of cartoons. They are fun to read, and they have something to teach: http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/TOCs/c5094.html "The frog in the well does not realize the immensity of the sky." Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martial Arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:34:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... I was > also studying ground techniques in hapkido long before the Gracie family > came into public view. FYIW... I've seen a lot of sit-down techniques in Hapkido and maybe some other stuff that is Judo-related, but not actual ground fighting techniques ala GJJ/BJJ. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:51:08 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mixing Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "......Opening a can of worms here - it's my opinion that many times the reason an instructor does not want you to train outside of their school, association, organization . . . . . is because it will clearly show how lacking in depth they are, or that the system they are teaching is lacking, or that they are afraid of losing a student (read income), or that you as a student will see that they do not know it all, or any of a number of reasons none of which are based on the best interests of the student but on the selfish interests of the instructor (read make all of the money from the student)..." I would never say you are wrong with this line of thought, only that your approach is rife with conclusions that are going to keep us going in circles everytime people start talking like this. I agree that many teachers are about "turf" and as you say they don't want their own short-coming revealed. Thats fine. But what about those folks who are enamoured of their art, accept it for better or worse for what it is and don't want people messing with it because it might not meet the expectations of some outsider? If somebody wants to take Hapkido, for instance, and make a sport of it-- well isn't that what the KSW people were doing?--- thats fine. But then you have a "martial sport" not a "martial art". Suppose you want to get together with other practitioners of other arts and see what works and what doesn't? Fine but then you have a "martial science" not a "martial art". Suppose you want to makes a business out of selling trophies, uniforms, weapons, tests, ranks etc etc etc. Thats fine too but then you have "martial commerce" you don't have a "martial art". And what about those people who want to have "fun" or recreate with a MA? How about those people who want to experience an altered state of consciousness? What about those people who want to win friends or meet new people? All fine. But the Martial Art of choice is just that--- a Martial Art of Choice. Its taken on its own terms and for what it is, warts and all. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:07:08 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ground Fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This post is directed towards Mr. Hillard and Jeff who responded to me about Hapkido ground fighting. I would like to hear a little more from you both on what your curriculum is...I guess I was unaware of this aspect of Hapkido and I am very interested to hear what you guys are doing. Also, I know Michael Tomlinson has posted about rolling with his training partners, is that Hapkido or BJJ....or is there any difference and I'm too caught up in the names? Is the terminology for the techniques the same as the BJJ guys? At what point in your training did you learn ground fighting and at what point do you teach it to a student? Thanks in advance for your time. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:28:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now that I think about it, I haven't been to 1 TKD dojang where the owner, grandmaster whatever has studied only 1 martial art. I always see 9th dan TKD, 8th dan hapkido, 6th dan judo, etc etc etc. It's like a job, the more you know the better off you are. Also, the more one knows doesn't take away from them and their martial arts of choice. just my opinion. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:33:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] blocks and strikes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My first teacher, way back when, used to constantly remind us that there is no difference between a block and strike as it is all in the attitude. He had a real problem pronouncing that word so he would just tell us to punch him, and as you grabbed your numb arm after punching him he would smile and say "see, no difference". Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<<...but the point was that you should be blocking at least as hard as your attacking because the goal is the same: to disable you opponent.>>> --__--__-- Message: 8 From: David Weller Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:40:35 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] only strikes, no blocks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Spiller wrote: > The comment was: "There are NO > blocks in Taekwon-Do!" Now, of course there are (and > some of them, like hooking blocks, require almost no > power when executed properlly), but the point was that > you should be blocking at least as hard as your > attacking because the goal is the same: to disable you > opponent. > I have been told the same thing, and had it demonstrated to me, by my seniors on many occasions. We will often hold a re-breakable board when the first move in Kicho Il-bo is executed (deep forward stance, left foot forward, left hand executing a downward block with fist) and have the person break the board with the block. This proves in dramatic fashion to the newbies that kicks are not the only thing in our arsenal that can cause pain and suffering. I will also agree that there are subtle misdirections and blocks that are not as powerful. IE, when that 6'5" 270 Lb'er throws that round kick. I would not try to "stop" the kick, but rather avoid it and use the momentum of the kick to off balance the opponent for a counter. 'course at 270 If I can avoid that kick, I'm gonna keep movin'.... out of the area!! thanks, Dave Weller --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:42:37 -1000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Randall Sexton Subject: [The_Dojang] Working Out Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If any of you want to take your workout to a new level you might try some olympic rings. While I can knock out a substantial number of pushups, for example, on the rings I was able to knock out...uh...3. Working on 4 today! I have a new found respect for those sissy gymnastic guys. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 12:51:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Assinine? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Bruce, this is exactly the type of elitist attitude that drives people away from you, and kills any chance for the meaningful dialogue that you supposedly yearn for. Evidently, it was OK for the founders of the Hapkido arts to "mix and match" a lot of diverse material. In fact, if they had not stepped out from under the "Korean umbrella" then there would not even be a "Korean Hapkido". If ANY of the "Korean" arts borrows from outside it's "borders" it is certainly Hapkido. The Japanese influences are quite apparent, and more than a few folks point out the impact of Chinese material upon it's evolution (most notably YOU). I understand where you're coming from on some of your views. I really do understand, even though I would never choose that mindset or walk that path myself. However, the "if I have to explain it, you wouldn't get it anyway" schtick is a little much. In the spirit of the dialogue that you seek, why don't you explain to us why it's inadvisable to "mix and match" disparate arts instead of just blowing off the supposition via circular logic. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:18:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] studying to many martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What Jack said hold a lot of truth. I have been on the mats with Jack, he is a serious hapkido player. The phone book, taekwondo times, black belt magazine, etc., are full of people who hold 8th - 30th dan in a dozen different arts. I have also worked out with some at many seminars. Truth is, many of them, never spent much time as a student in any one art or they are really competent at only one of the arts and the rest is just a collection of paper. I have studied, and hold dan rank in several martial arts of the past 3 decades, but I don't tell anyone about those ranks, and those certificates are not in the dojang but in a box somewhere. I do not advertise them and I have no desire confuse my students who are already overwhelmed with the complexity of hapkido. Besides I have no desire to practice or teach them as hapkido has everything I need. I have attended hapkido seminars by 8th dan who only hold rank in hapkido and by those who also hold 8th dan in other arts. The instructor that was dedicated to the practice of one art, had a much higher skill level, more often than not. There are exceptions to most everything, but they are few and far between. Not my opinion, just my observations. 90% of my hapkido students hold dan ranking in taekwondo, as it is a very common art here, and before they attended their first class as a hapkido white belt, I often am told that they studied hapkido occasionally at their taekwondo dojang. Truth is they know a few hapkido techniques but have no grasp of what hapkido really is. Fortunately, it is always an exciting eye opener for them. As previously stated, there are exceptions and Dr. Kimm He Young is one, but someone at his skill level in these arts is very rare. Like I said this is not my opinion, just my observations. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:14:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Cory L. Ballinger" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Personally my beliefs of cross training or mixing your art or supplementing your training is no different then going to school and learning Math, English, Science, History etc... Why should martial arts be any different? I agree w/ Mr. Clark on this one. I too have been in the martial arts since 1984 and since have trained in Karate, TaeKwonDo, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, BJJ, Kali,Escrima,Arnis, Silat, Jeet Kune Do, 7star Praying Mantis Kung fu, Wing Chun Kung fu, Russian Systema, amongst several other eclecticly blended arts over the years. I think it all depends on your instructor and if he's looking for your best interest or not. A good teacher would expect you to be loyal but yet want you to succeed and learn all you can from any source you can. A stingy or selfish instructor will preach to his students to be loyal and that his art has all the benifits and there is no need to explore elsewhere etc.. or my favorite is wait till you get to a high rank or an advanced rank under him then you can explore elsewhere.. What hogwash he's just trying to keep you for your money. And you'll never gain from an instructor like that Im afraid. It never amazes me the people that don't know any better that get trapped by these type of instructor > -------------------------------- Cory Ballinger 3rd Dan: Karate-Do Instructor: Kailat-Street Boxing www.INmartialartsacademy.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Mixing Arts Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:20:49 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the martial art, sport and science has been an on going debate here on the forum and I love it. I have been doing TKD for the last 14 months. the TKD that I do is more like itf. however every instructor will put his or her own accent on the style. I feel that I am of a spiritual disposition [many of us are]. I have found that through my training that a have increased my spiritual depth. as we are all too aware MA is normally based on a need for self defence. survival. to me its that simple. as we know TKD is essential an unarmed art. I was training one evening happily doing my patterns when I saw the head instructor take a few women for some self defence scenarios. I was horrified when he told them that if they were attacked that they should take a brick or anything they have to hand and hit their attacked with it. what a shock. we do unarmed combat! well of course a learned a lesson that day. I can use the weapon needed or at hand to defend yourself and your loved ones. of course I'm not encouraging any hot heads to go out and use lethal force! however learning and training with other styles could be a handy weapon in your arsenal. RULDS2? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: 07 February 2005 17:51 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mixing Arts "......Opening a can of worms here - it's my opinion that many times the reason an instructor does not want you to train outside of their school, association, organization . . . . . is because it will clearly show how lacking in depth they are, or that the system they are teaching is lacking, or that they are afraid of losing a student (read income), or that you as a student will see that they do not know it all, or any of a number of reasons none of which are based on the best interests of the student but on the selfish interests of the instructor (read make all of the money from the student)..." I would never say you are wrong with this line of thought, only that your approach is rife with conclusions that are going to keep us going in circles everytime people start talking like this. I agree that many teachers are about "turf" and as you say they don't want their own short-coming revealed. Thats fine. But what about those folks who are enamoured of their art, accept it for better or worse for what it is and don't want people messing with it because it might not meet the expectations of some outsider? If somebody wants to take Hapkido, for instance, and make a sport of it-- well isn't that what the KSW people were doing?--- thats fine. But then you have a "martial sport" not a "martial art". Suppose you want to get together with other practitioners of other arts and see what works and what doesn't? Fine but then you have a "martial science" not a "martial art". Suppose you want to makes a business out of selling trophies, uniforms, weapons, tests, ranks etc etc etc. Thats fine too but then you have "martial commerce" you don't have a "martial art". And what about those people who want to have "fun" or recreate with a MA? How about those people who want to experience an altered state of consciousness? What about those people who want to win friends or meet new people? All fine. But the Martial Art of choice is just that--- a Martial Art of Choice. Its taken on its own terms and for what it is, warts and all. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest