Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 18:04:57 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #54 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. musahsi, sun tsu study guides? (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 2. Re: Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing (jakskru) 3. Re: Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing (jakskru) 4. Re: Hapkido Ground Fighting (jakskru) 5. RE: hapkido and ground fighting (Howard Spivey) 6. RE: Bruce and Ray (Kip McCormick) 7. RE: Cho dan (Kip McCormick) 8. RE: bruce sims's response to david weller... (Howard Spivey) 9. RE: Re: Mixing Arts (Rick Clark) 10. One-steps (Giancarlo Fusco) 11. Thanks for a great seminar (Cynthia Moe) 12. Re: Mixing Martial Arts (Giancarlo Fusco) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:27:00 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] musahsi, sun tsu study guides? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Peter, I will give you my perspective, and I have been interested in these books 20+ years. First, I have never found a good "study guide," except for Musashi's admonition that understanding comes through doing. What I would recommend is reading as many differing translations as you can find, and there are several for both. I would recommend a wide range of translations from esoteric (RL Wing) to military (Samuel Griffith). Then you might want to read commentaries on each such as written by Kauffman. The books are not something you will fully appreciate with one or two readings. Of the two, Go Rin No Sho is harder to comprehend, but more immediately applicable to real self defense. I still try to re-study them every so often. I was first intrigued with Sun Tzu quotations when I read Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan back in the 1970's. Back then, I didn't understand a lot of these books, but the longer you train, the better you will understand. And I will be the first to say that you don't have to study these classics in order to be a first rate martial artist. But if you want to understand the root and framework of technique and tactic, and be able to express the concepts, then this is the way to go. As for study directing questions or statements, the following come to mind immediately: Strategy is Absolute Strategy is situational What is the Way How to reach Mastery How to Know Yourself How to know Others Importance of Self Control How to have a perfect Defense The importance of and how to move the opponent The cost of fighting/war The importance of Crossing the Ravine, and preparation for it Psychology of personal combat Rhythm and timing The importance of information Situational Awareness and personal security The Ultimate Goal Hope this helps. You are also welcome to email me privately. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net true, mixing of arts has been going on, but i still stand by statement....however, if after you have attained a good level of competency in one art (black belt + ), then to go and attain a different perspective so to speak, i.e. learning another art, is all fine and good....however, if you go to try it while you are still at a lower rank would be counterproductive...your body doesnt have the muscle memory yet and you will find yourself mixing the arts together, making it more difficult to learn either one....didnt someone mention something earlier about it taking longer to reach black belt if you had already learned another style? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:02 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing > In a message dated 2/5/2005 9:19:25 PM Eastern > I disagree with this statement. "Mixing of Arts or techniques "have been > going on for along time and are part of evoloution of the arts. People or > cultures cross each others paths and share different methods(Sometimes not a > peaceful exchange) of combat that finetune the things in whih they train in. > > Alot of people out there attend seminars by different masters and then > incooperate things they learn into thier training. IS that dishonorable to > perform the technique different than YOUR master tells you it should be done? I > trained for many years in something and came to realize that it was not meeting > my needs in certain areas so I went on to seek more truth and knowledge and > eventually a different Art and instructor that opened up my mind to concepts > , methods of movement , and bladed /edged weapon techniques that I was never > shown or considered. My own two cents... --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:36:22 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i dont think i was very clear the first time....first off, yes i do base this on experience from watching other students that have trained in other arts, then seeing them revert to that other arts teachings, say for instance in their stepping/movement patterns, then since their footwork is not correct they have a problem executing techniques since they are not in the correct position before, during or after...this they have to unlearn first, then learn the way we learn...that is why it is counterproductive. i wasnt talking about kicking instead of throwing, and i do not mean these observations for people that have attained some mastery of an art already...or someone looking to be a gladiator type pit fighter...all i said was that i feel it is inadvisable to try to learn more than one art at the same time...if you can do it, then maybe you are an exception....but i dont think i could without mixing things up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Clark" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:15 AM Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing > Hi Guys, > > >From: Beungood8@aol.com [mailto:Beungood8@aol.com] > > > What do you base this on? Your opinion? I have been at the martial > arts since 1962 and have trained in a number of martial arts at the same > time over the years. I have taught different martial arts classes at in > the same day and not had any problems. For example I would start the > morning class with Judo, then teach an Arnis class, followed by Ju-jitsu > and then a TKD or Karate class. I never once wanted to kick by partner > in the Judo class in the head. In my opinion it's good to --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ground Fighting Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net we begin learning the basics of ground fighting right from the beginning...after you perform some sort of takedown/throw/wrist throw, your oppenent is on the ground, no? so, among other things, we learn armbars, leglocks and choke holds, as well as some counters to the same....but real in depth groundfighting skills dont get taught until just prior to black belt ( which by our ranking system is brown belt). as for the terminology, i wouldnt know if it is the same since i dont study BJJ. hope this helps ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brooke Thomas" To: Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:07 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Ground Fighting > This post is directed towards Mr. Hillard and Jeff who > responded to me about Hapkido ground fighting. I > would like to hear a little more from you both on what > your curriculum is...I guess I was unaware of this > aspect of Hapkido and I am very interested to hear > what you guys are doing. Also, I know Michael > Tomlinson has posted about rolling with his training > partners, is that Hapkido or BJJ....or is there any > difference and I'm too caught up in the names? > > Is the terminology for the techniques the same as the > BJJ guys? At what point in your training did you > learn ground fighting and at what point do you teach > it to a student? > > Thanks in advance for your time. > > Brooke Thomas > Hapkido Blend > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:47:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: hapkido and ground fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net brooke thomas wrote: "...what happens when you find yourself on the ground with somebody who is in obvious disagreement with you and want to break things on your person? Where's the traditional Hapkido manual for that?" hi brooke, traditional hapkido, by which i mean the art that choi young sool brought back from japan and taught in korea, has ground fighting techniques, although they don't focus on staying on the ground as a strategy, as many bjj techniques do (or seem to, from my very limited knowledge of bjj). there are techniques for when you and / or your opponent are seated, for when you are flat on the ground and your opponent is standing or seated, and for when you are on the ground and your opponent is on top of you (you could be either face up or face down). many of the ground techniques involve variations of the standing techniques. regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Bruce and Ray Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:26:36 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey, Bruce Wayne is a buddy of mine. Easy on that Batman thing. Enough, too, about cross training. Let's talk about cross dressing!!! Sorry. That slipped. How's about those Patriots, eh? Kip >From: "tim walker" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce and Ray >Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:09:47 -0500 > >I don't think there is a Bruce Sims. I think he's an alter ego dreamed up >by >Ray Terry to keep everyone on the list on their toes. I mean, how come you >never see them photographed together? > >Kind of like Kip and Batman. > >timo >"What's so funny about peace, love, and liberal use of your key?" >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Cho dan Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:34:18 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net And "Hyundai" is very close to "Honda"...it's a conspiracy!!! Kip >From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Cho dan >Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:45:48 -0500 > >Ray wrote: > > >Several koreans, mostly Kukkiwon types, have explained to be that Il >Dan >should be used instead of Cho Dan. > >and J.R. West wrote: > >"When attaining Black belt, a student has always been referred to as >"Chodan", or beginning dan, and then E-dan or second dan. I have never >heard of a teacher using Il-dan when referring to a bottom level black >belt." > >So here's how to reconcile these statements. Cho dan is the older term >for 1st dan black belts. It is out of favor in Korea because it is too >close to the Japanese "Shodan," and since the 1970s the Kukkiwon and >others have supported the use of Il dan instead. A lot of Americans are >like J.R. in that our instructors came over in the 1950s and the >language that we use is still that used by the Koreans in the 1950s and >1960s. Another example of this is "sudo" (knifehand) which is too close >to "shuto" (knifehand in Japanese) and has therefore been replaced by >"sonnal." > >"A rose by any other name..." > >Take care, > >Dakin >dakinburdick@yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:58:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: bruce sims's response to david weller... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net just a brief clarification, since most members probably think this topic is getting pretty worn... i inferred from bruce's post to david that he thought david had posted this question: > "I was asking you why you feel compelled to rant about > a post that many of us found helpful, and turn > thepost's subject on its head by launching a > discussion that seemed roughly about the purity of > korean martial arts - a subject that would require > gargantuan leaps of logic to link to craig's original > post...." actually, i posted that question, bruce. please feel free to direct a response to me if you wish to. regards to all, howard --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Mixing Arts Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:02:16 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, > From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] > "......Opening a can of worms here - it's my opinion > that many times the reason an instructor does not want > you to train outside of their school, > association, organization . . . . . is because it > will clearly show how lacking in depth they are, or > that the system they are teaching is lacking, or that > they are afraid of losing a student (read income), or > that you as a student will see that they do not know > it all, or any of a number of reasons none of which > are based on the best interests of the student but on > the selfish interests of the instructor (read make all > of the money from the student)..." > > I would never say you are wrong with this line of > thought, only that your approach is rife with > conclusions that are going to keep us going in circles > everytime people start talking like this. > > I agree that many teachers are about "turf" and as you > say they don't want their own short-coming revealed. > Thats fine. But what about those folks who are > enamoured of their art, accept it for better or worse > for what it is and don't want people messing with it > because it might not meet the expectations of some > outsider? Possible and there are probably some out there like that. But I suspect, at least from my experience, that it's more about turf. > Bruce Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:26:17 -0800 (PST) From: Giancarlo Fusco To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One-steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net These are excellent points. I would like to see more students (and schools for that matter) adopt this policy. In addition, in the schools that I have trained in and observed (TKD and Tang Soo Do), I would like to see less static one-steps. In other words, when student B defends student A's attack then counters, student A should act like he/she is being hit. If we are going to practice only defending against attacks that can actually hit us, then we should also practice our counter-attacks on an opponent who actually doubles over from a punch to the solar plexus, or reels back from a palm heel to the jaw, etc. In my opinion, this provides realism as well as practice in learning how to flow with your counter-attacks. Any other thoughts or disagreements? Peace- Giancarlo Fusco From: David Weller Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:21:36 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Spiller wrote: On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:31 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > The same holds true when measuring for attacks to the > high section (face) and low section (groin). The key > is proper measuring, which does NOT entail leaving the > defender in a position where blocking and/or ddging > becomes meaningless. Proper measuring means the > defender must actually DEFEND himself. > Exactly!! And to tie this in with Mr. Terry's question about whether a block is needed if the punch/kick is off the mark, the dan students in our school ignore those off target strikes. Why block what won't hit you? "Waste of energy" is what my teacher says. We do the same in free sparring. It's kind of funny (because we have all been there) to see a lower gup rank throwing these wonderful combinations of kicks and strikes that are 2 feet from you. We just watch them tire out!! And of course give pointers on "closing the gap" ... Thanks for lending to intelligent discussion of our arts! Dave Weller --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Cynthia Moe" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:43:15 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks for a great seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to publicly thank Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman and our dojang cousins at Timmerman's Martial Arts for a great seminar and a wonderful time at the Sault this past weekend. I thoroughly enjoyed my first chance at weapons training, and appreciate that fact that even though I am a low ranking belt, I am always treated with such great respect and patience. There is nothing like having a gold belt in the dojang to help highlight all those black belts :0>. Thanks also to Mrs. B, Jessie and Shane for their patience in showing me the basics of weapons handling. And a special thanks to Irene for the Korean food--what an unexpected treat! Sajanim, Christy and Sue and I are looking forward to seeing you again as soon as possible. If we are able to get together with you in Brainerd in April, don't forget to ask us about our Canadian flags! >From one of your favorite honorary Canadians, Cindy Moe Brainerd, MN Cynthia Moe UOP Online Faculty cynmoe@email.uophx.edu --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:53:37 -0800 (PST) From: Giancarlo Fusco Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martial Arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It all depends, again, on the version of hapkido that your studying. For example, I was told that the master with I've trained under in hapkido was a student of Choi's (whether you believ he is the founder of HKD or not is a whole 'nuther debate). I tested and received my 1st Dan in it, and I was quite comfortable. But, I felt that things were missing, especially when I would go to seminars given by other martial artists (FYI, I am pro cross-training, when done properly). Then I read Hapkido by Marc Tedeschi and it blew me away. Here was a complete martial art called Hapkido, but it was a lot different from the one I studied. The one I studied didn't teach pressure points for striking or grappling, groundwork was limited to a few judo techniques, and the names were different. It was then that it finally sunk in that 100 people practicing hapkido can easily be practicing 100 versions of hapkido. Just my opinion. Peace- Giancarlo Fusco From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martial Arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:34:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... I was > also studying ground techniques in hapkido long before the Gracie family > came into public view. FYIW... I've seen a lot of sit-down techniques in Hapkido and maybe some other stuff that is Judo-related, but not actual ground fighting techniques ala GJJ/BJJ. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest