Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 03:05:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #79 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: You are purposely ignoring my point (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: Its how you train that counts (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors (Bruce Sims) 4. Re: Re: Its how you train that counts (jakskru) 5. Re: Re: You are purposely ignoring my point (Ray Terry) 6. Re-Why we need central authority in taekwondo (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 7. Rolling with grapplers (Frank Clay) 8. Re: Re-Why we need central authority in taekwondo (rterry@idiom.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:16:33 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: You are purposely ignoring my point Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....You might wanna cut back on the hubris there, Bruce..." Ya know, this is why there will never be an intelligent discussion along these lines. Your comment has nothing to do with the relative merits regarding the arts under discussion. Its has everything to do with the conclusions made and acted upon about the person making the statement. If you want to make this personal why pretend that you are at all interested in MA and just make it a personal series of deprecating comments. We don't need a MA net for that and that seems to be what this comes down to time and again. NOW--- go back and READ MY ORIGINAL POST. THERE IS NO HUBRIS IN IT. THE STATEMENT IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE and used a BJJ clip to make my point. To my way of thinking the discussion is a mismatch of intent and application. BJJ allows for competition by removing debilitating strikes, and stopping techniques before they become fx, dislocations, strains and sprains. The training is to condition to deal with the discomfort that would normally attend various techniques that rely on discomfort for compliance. Hapkido does not allow for competition. It keeps the debilitating strikes, does not stop the techniques before they become fx, dislocations, strains and sprains.The purpose is to stop the fight any way possible and what happens to the attacker is not a limiting factor. Now I can use metaphores, simile's, examples, and anything else I can think of to make my point. What I CAN'T do is cause you to respect my point of view or what I am saying. And there seem to be a lot more folks willing to run-down the Hapkido arts because someone is not willing to put out an eye, break a neck, burst an eardrum etc etc to make a point. AND if you STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND MY POINT let me ask you this. In the clip, why did Royce simply bang around on his opponent? Why did he not drive a finger into the persons' eye from a position of advantage? It would have stopped the fight and been very good Hapkido. Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:32:46 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Its how you train that counts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Edward: ".....Is that to mean that when you execute in class a throw from a locked wrist you are always breaking each others wrists in every class? You see my point? There is a heck of a lot to learn from two people playing cat and mouse games with each other.trying to figure out what your liabilities would be in the real world......" I am not able to make up for all of the mistakes people have made about Hapkido up to this point. On this net alone I have read that people train Children in Hapkido. I have read that people "compete in Hapkido". I have heard that people eschew forms training and weapons but still call what they do Hapkido. I have no control over what other people do but I can tell you that many of the dialogues on the DD go 'round and 'round because people have bent Hapkido so many different ways that it has become a kind of joke any time someone wants to tout THEIR particular art. It routinely gets bumped up against the Japanese arts and found wanting. Then its bumped up against BJJ and found wanting. Then its bumped up against TKD and TSD and found wanting. Against Kendo/kumdo and found wanting. Lets just stop a moment and take a look at the question you asked. In Hapkido a partner works to stay a quarter-second and a quarter-inch ahead of the technique you are doing. It helps a LOT to know what is coming. In this way you can execute the technique as hard as you want and the person goes with it. You are NOT Throwing your partner. You are using your partner as a target against whom to train muscle memory. On the street a person would not know you are going to do an Outer Wrist Throw and would have his wrist fractured. On the other hand, if the Hapkido practitioner is NOT up to fracturing a persons' wrist, then I suggest that he not pull his Hapkido out of its holster. In Hapkido I am NOT playing "cat and mouse". Its not about playing "head games". The intent is lethal force. The PURPOSE is to teach a student what they are able to do, give them the power to be able to do these things and then help them to develope the Character NOT to use such tactics. Maybe the focus is MThand. Maybe its a sword. Maybe its a glaive (aka: wol-do), but the purpose is always the same.This is one of the great conundrums of martial arts that practitioners of martial sports are simply never going to understand. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:13:58 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: When I would work with clients and didn’t know something, the simple answer was to “ask”. So I am laying these four questions out for the contributing population to consider regarding the discussion we have had to date. 1.) From the contributions that have been made I noted that people believe that Hapkido may or may not be used as a defined art or arts. By this I mean that I have seen that folks believe that Hapkido is essentially what they might put together independent of what it may have been. Can you accept that I do not believe this and that I view Hapkido as a Mu-Do constructed and practiced according to set principles? 2.) From the contributions that have been made I noted that people believe that Hapkido may be used from the standpoint of competition and by extension perhaps even for sport. By this I mean that I have seen that folks believe that Hapkido may be modified to limit practice and application in competition yet still retain its identity as the original art. Can you accept that I do not believe this and that I view Hapkido that has been limited or modified perhaps as similar to, but certainly not the same as, the original art? 3.) From the contributions that have been made I have noted that people believe that Hapkido may or may not be used as a venue for Physical Education and training. By this I mean that I have read that folks believe that Hapkido can be practiced purely as a physical endeavor represented by what is performed by the body. Can you accept that I do not believe this and that I view Hapkido as a Mu-Do which is likewise an intellectual and emotional and spiritual activity? 4.) From the contributions that have been made I have noted that people believe that Hapkido may or may not be taken as a serious pursuit. By this I mean that I have seen that folks believe that Hapkido may well serve as time-structuring, recreation, a pleasant diversion and even a venue for socialization. Can you accept that I take Hapkido as a serious, sacred trust in which this generation. That this generation is expected to perpetuate to the next generation what has been given into this generation’s care by the last generation. There is very little purpose to contributing to this Net if the position from which those contributions are made is simply at odds with or unacceptable to the overall population. Perhaps it would save us all a lot of time, energy and consternation if we simply get this out in the open and settled. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Its how you train that counts Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net wow, i just love this bantering from both sides...only it seems to me that brooke is posing some legit questions, and bruce and craig are talking apples and oranges....although they are both fruit, they both come from different trees, no? to brooke, i hope you can get your questions answered...they are good ones and are issues that deserve discussion to bruce, your last post had alot of good points, especially about what people are calling hapkido ( it seems that ALOT of people have gotten a watered down version of the art, most likely because it is very tough to keep enough students in a school for profit if they are given the harsher stuff that should be taught---not many people can take it and fewer still can stick it out until they can at least obtain their liscense to learn, i.e. black belt ). also, the uke ( or whatever you want to call it ) is supposed to be a step ahead....so many times i have seen someone in class that gets hurt simply because they dont "go" with the technique. to craig, love your posts, keep up the great work...we all ( mostly ) value your opinion and insight...however, it just looks like you and bruce are not talking about the same thing exactly, your both talking about the same clip, and your both talking about MA, just not the same aspects....kind of like discussing a movie where one person is talking about the acting and one is talking about the plot. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: You are purposely ignoring my point To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:28:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In the clip, why did Royce simply bang around on his > opponent? Why did he not drive a finger into the > persons' eye from a position of advantage? It would > have stopped the fight and been very good Hapkido. Because he would have had to pay legal fees as a result? Because it was harder to bust him up a little instead of bust him up a lot? ??? As I say, go down to Torrance or send one of your blackbelt students down to Torrance to roll with one of their boys. Sign the waver, no rules. Use all the deadly techniques you wish. I suspect they will go along with whatever you're after. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:24:56 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re-Why we need central authority in taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >The WTF is the world governing body. The Kukkiwon is the World TKD Academy >and TKD Headquarters. Thus it really isn't proper to say you are WTF, >individuals cannot be members of the WTF. You are Kukkiwon or Kukki-Taekwondo. FWIW.. My recent Kukkiwon cert. signed Woon Kyu Uhm has been stamped “ World Taekwondo Headquarters” in the lower left corner. My prior certificates signed by Un Yong Kim did not have such a stamp on them. All cert. have a seal or ring at the top that includes the words “ World Taekwondo Headquarters” >I strongly advise everyone to avoid splinter taekwondo >groups. Train and test ONLY with the AAU,ITF or WTF. Everything else is at >your peril and I GUARANTEE the "Hacks" are "Worthless". (I'll let everyone here >figure out who I meant by my last remark! If one takes a good look back into the last 60+ years of KMA history, they will find that most or all of the Kwans were “splinter groups”. Many of the founders and early leaders were originally trained in karate and/or other MA. The current AAU TKD is a splinter group from the USTU (USA TKD). ITF is a splinter group. One of these current or future splinter groups may be the next big hit in MA. Right now, there could be a great leader with superior MA skills and knowledge, who is developing are great MA program and he or she may not be connected with AAU, ITF or WTF. Just food for thought. Keep Training and enjoy it JOHN --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 14:25:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rolling with grapplers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I don't believe you actually made that post. Let me clarify some things for you based on real-life experiences. In 1990, while working in a section of Afton in Richmond, VA, I had the occasion to find myself trying to take someone into custody who was trying to force his way into a home. He turned towards me and shot in. I didn't have time to strike him in the base of the head, pull my weapon, or any or variant of some hypothetical situation based on someone's imagination. I rolled with him and subbed him. I followed the nap rule of snap, tap or nap (BJJ guys will know exactly what I mean - lol). On the street you don't typically have time for nice fancy moves or choreographed techniques. You have time to react and that is about it. In 1994 when I came under fire in North Richmond, I had time to drop and draw and that was about it. Damn good thing I wasn't the initial target. You WILL respond the same way you are trained. For that reason, I strongly recommend getting on the mats with some BJJ or other grapplers. You don't know when it will have come in handy or when it may save your life. I sure as heck didn't go to work expecting to be bull-dogged. I have a lot more examples I could give, but I think these two make the case that we as instructors need to wake up. We give a myriad of techniques in hopes that someone will master a couple of good ones that can be used in virtually any position. The rest is learning how to train the body and manipulate it. If you want to debate me on this, first thing you need to do is spend some time on the streets. At the very least, you need to get on the mat with some NHB types that you are friendly with and try your theories. Using good safety protocols that is. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:48:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re-Why we need central authority in taekwondo From: rterry@idiom.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>The WTF is the world governing body. The Kukkiwon is the World TKD Academy >>and TKD Headquarters. Thus it really isn't proper to say you are WTF, >>individuals cannot be members of the WTF. You are Kukkiwon or >>Kukki-Taekwondo. > > FWIW.. My recent Kukkiwon cert. signed Woon Kyu Uhm has been stamped “ > World > Taekwondo Headquarters” in the lower left corner. My prior certificates > signed by Un Yong Kim did not have such a stamp on them. All cert. have > a seal or ring at the top that includes the words “ World Taekwondo > Headquarters A bit of trivia... There was a period, in the late 1980s I believe, when Kukki-TKD dan certs were labeled as WTF dan certs. I have one. Not sure why they did that, or why they stopped, but there it is. Ray --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest