Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 15:26:22 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #80 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE:Why we need central authority in Taekwondo (. DixiePride) 2. Re: Apples and Oranges (Bruce Sims) 3. I STILL feel we need central authority! (Tkdsid@aol.com) 4. Ground Round (michael tomlinson) 5. Hapkido vs BJJ (michael tomlinson) 6. Re: Re: Its how you train that counts (Edward) 7. Gracie's take downs (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. What Craig already knows... (michael tomlinson) 9. Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors (tim walker) 10. ground altercations (J R Hilland) 11. Rolling with Grapplers (Art VanVranken) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ". DixiePride" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:34:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Why we need central authority in Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Rubinfield Sir, I must agree with you.I have often wished that all the styles could get their act together and unify into one central authority.It would give the belts we hold much more standing in the martial arts community.I have often been frustrated that our art has become so splintered and factional. I have trained for several years with the I.T.A.,who relatively closely adhere to the teachings of General Choi's "Chang Hon" system.I always looked to the I.T.F. website forums for questions I had concerning my training, when one arose outside my dojang.I would be studying with the I.T.F. if there were an I.T.F. dojang in my area,but there isnt.Since General Choi's death I dont even know which I.T.F. is the real one, there are three "official" I.T.F.'s now.If you stand back and look at the system as an outsider it makes the whole thing look like a big joke,although General Choi spent his life trying to unify and perfect his wonderful system.It also irks me when I visit a school who is teaching General Choi's style and find that they have changed movements in a form or taken forms out of the 24 form Chang Hon set.I believe that each pattern and each movement is there for a reason.To slowly help a student perfect the techniques of our system. In my opinion our art should adopt the same ideolgy that has helped the United States government survive so many years."United we stand,divided we fall" Just my two cents worth,for whats its worth. Sincerely, Gregg From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:13:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Why we need central authority in taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear fellow tkd'ers I have heard all the arguments now. "THIS is America...why should we send our fees to Korea!" " The last president of the WTF is in jail...the whole thing is corrupt." "What is ITF after General Choi? Will the real ITF please stand up?" Yes, of course, there are issues. Some small and some large. After having gotten my first dan through the kukkiwon, I was tested with a master in Staten Island, NY. It's been a year and I haven't yet gotten my kukkiwon (2nd dan). THAT stuff didn't ever happen with the WTF, nor do I suspect did it happen with the ITF. I strongly advise everyone to avoid splinter taekwondo groups. Train and test ONLY with the AAU,ITF or WTF. Everything else is at your peril and I GUARANTEE the "Hacks" are "Worthless". (I'll let everyone here figure out who I meant by my last remark! Sid Rubinfeld _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:25:18 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Apples and Oranges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....If you want to debate me on this, first thing you need to do is spend some time on the streets. At the very least, you need to get on the mat with some NHB types that you are friendly with and try your theories. Using good safety protocols that is...." There is no need to debate anything because as long as there are qualifiers we will be talking about two different things. Examine some of the posts that have been offered in response and you can draw your own conclusions. 1.) Signing waivers. 2.) Safety protocols. 3.) Types that you are friendly with. The outcome is predictable as long as a limit is placed on the Hapkido. The same is true of ANY event where one approach is limited in deference to the methods of another. You could put me on the mat with the average wrestler, boxer, and anyone else and if you start with "....and here are the rules" you have already put the Hapkido at a disadvantage. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. In the infamous "NHB" contests there are STILL rules. Your being out on the street you are still constrained by rules about "excessive force", yes? The applications of Hapkido have one use and one use only and that is survival under dire circumstances. My sense is that THIS is why there are so many discussions such as the one about BJJ. There are plenty of Hapkido people and plenty of competent Hapkido people. Now WHERE do they get to show what THEIR art can do. There are the battlefields, undercover LEO work, or the odd attack by some carzy with a knife. Other than that one can probably expect to go their whole life and never use the techniques one trains for, and yes, that "does" create issues about "I wonder if this stuff really works." Not to put too fine a point on this---- but somehow I don't think this point of mine is getting across--- let me use an extreme example. If Royce Gracie challenged me to a match, I would probably show-up with my sword. He would be using HIS favorite techniques and "I" would (arguably) be using MY favorite. "NOT FAIR", says you. And I say, "'fair' has nothing to do with it." This is NOT about being 'fair'. It is not about winning and losing. It is about the need to survive. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:47:08 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] I STILL feel we need central authority! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes John, at one time we had splinter groups know as kwons but they came together for a purpose didn't they? I am aware that persons such as Bruce Lee, Mas Oyama, Hwang Kee...even Tiger Schulman can create their own wonderful thing. It's a rish we take following someone that thinks out of the box. But as a rule..stay mainstream. Sid --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:15:37 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ground Round Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I write, Randy writes: Where do you get new training partners at...as one dies each session? Randy >"......If you don't practice your "deadly" techniques >at mach speed with power and all the >disadvantages of terain and clothing against a person >who is bent on slamming the back of your head on the >ground and wrapping you up like a cheap christmas >present then you really have no idea of what works and >what does not work....." The point being missed is that what you think will work won't work because you haven't went full enough speed to know the difference...and guess what.. you won't be able to gouge, crush, debilitate, decapitate, but just mentally masturbate!! That's where the smell hits the keyboard... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:25:20 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido vs BJJ Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Clint writes: <> You are probably right. I gave some adulation to the BJJ fighter. I don't think their art is the most dangerous.. but I think the way they train prepares them more for what they KNOW is gonna happen in a fight and be prepared for it. << I'm not an expert in the field of martial arts but I know one thing that most of us would agree it depends on how the person (martial artist) fights.>> Exactly, and you fight as you train. Train hard and understand stand up, sit down, clinch, and groundwork, weapon disarms, and weapon use. IMHO Sometimes you have to put the video and keyboard down and go hard. << Not all the time you get the same probability of tossing the same side of a coin. My point is that any martial art is dangerous; it is the persons' fighting skills matters. Just a simple thought.>> I agree with you on this.. and a van is also dangerous if you get hit by it crossing the road,, but you hopefully have learned to look both ways while crossing the road... BUT what if you were taught or practice or train to cross the road while looking both ways...up and down instead of side to side?? Training IS important, but you have to match the training to the task at hand. Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:33:37 -0600 From: Edward To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Its how you train that counts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok so there is no confusion here, please. Have you ever rolled or trained or had to fight on the ground? In class, you you break your students wrists? Please simple yes or no answers. Edward >Lets just stop a moment >and take a look at the question you asked. > >In Hapkido a partner works to stay a quarter-second >and a quarter-inch ahead of the technique you are >doing. It helps a LOT to know what is coming. In this >way you can execute the technique as hard as you want >and the person goes with it. You are NOT Throwing your >partner. You are using your partner as a target >against whom to train muscle memory. On the street a >person would not know you are going to do an Outer >Wrist Throw and would have his wrist fractured. On the >other hand, if the Hapkido practitioner is NOT up to >fracturing a persons' wrist, then I suggest that he >not pull his Hapkido out of its holster. > >In Hapkido I am NOT playing "cat and mouse". Its not >about playing "head games". The intent is lethal >force. The PURPOSE is to teach a student what they are >able to do, give them the power to be able to do these >things and then help them to develope the Character >NOT to use such tactics. Maybe the focus is MThand. >Maybe its a sword. Maybe its a glaive (aka: wol-do), >but the purpose is always the same.This is one of the >great conundrums of martial arts that practitioners of >martial sports are simply never going to understand. > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 19:43:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gracie's take downs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I read Royce's take down attempt was absolutely terrible" Remember many of the modern MMA practitioners have the Gracie's come in to train them, because they respect there battle tested ability. JC --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:45:02 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] What Craig already knows... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Guys ground fighting is a pretty simple concept....position before technique... it doesn't matter if you are 60 or 6 years old..if you put two people together with no training or with a lot of training or if they are 1st graders out in the back yard and say "go at it"... once they clinch,, and they will,, after they hit the ground there is approximately 10 positions that EVERYONE ends up in on the ground. It doesn't matter if you have never grappled at all you will still end up in these approx. 10 positions they are universal to the human grappling condition.. the Gracies have given these positions names, and then get out the knowledge hat and find out what technique works and what doesn't from these positions... wrestlers have also done this from a thousand years ago...the BIGGEST problem with the wrestling part is that flat on your back means the match is over..on the street flat on your back might mean that you can see what is coming... but the basic concepts of position are the same. Wrestlers are VERY good at getting position but they have to train at what to do more once they get position..BJJ does this on the fly... Hapkido players learn basic ground techniques but you have to get down and sweaty and learn position and then try to apply the techniques from the good stable positions.. I am not pitting BJJ against Hapkido,, Hell I'm a Hapkido guy plain and simple...BUT,, you have to learn the positons to do the techniques from... if you notice the long time grapplers get thrown around and flip flopped but they never looked freaked out or surprised during a fight...that's because they understand position..they understand it from DOING IT.. not watching it on a video... you don't have to want to fight in the next Pride or UFC to learn some of this ground work but you do have to put your ego and your pretty multi stripped black belt on hold and just have fun refilling your cup...do you think for a minute if Bruce Lee was alive today he would't be learning how to ground fight?? Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:27:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Firstly, Bruce, thanks for asking. The two people on this list that know me know that I like to keep it light, but I opinion that you are the serious type so I will try to respond in kind. <> <> <> <> Of course I can accept this. I'm an adult. We are all adults. And to paraphrase Popeye, "You are what you are." So I can accept all of your beliefs as yours sincerely. Now I'm not one of these "Oh yeah well we'll just see what you got on the mat" kind of guys. And I don't know diddly about Hapkido, that's why I read the list. But I have observed that you come across as someone who posts here to teach only, not to learn. There is never a chance of you wavering from a position no matter how many others offer their perspective. Ever. And, accepting that the (e)written word has limitations regarding tone and body language, I always imagine you typing rapidly with one finger while poking the (figurative) chest of your (imagined, figurative) opponent with the other. I acknowledge that you are my academic superior in all HKD matters, historical, physic-al, technique-ological. I say that sincerely. I also acknowledge that you are much more serious about it than I. Much much much more. Now don't go getting all Kip McCormick on my hairy yellow behind. I'm not looking for a fight. You seemed to be asking why you're always on the "other side", and I'm offering my opinion. If you were to ask how we might better communicate as a community, I might suggest that you lighten up a little. Some of us are firemen and need small words, big pictures, and frequent bathroom breaks. But you didn't ask that, so I'll keep it to myself. I learn a lot from you. I also learn a lot from those who...um...debate with you. Thank you all for your contributions. tim walker "Dolor Temporarius, Gloria Aeterna, Cicatrices Virgines Placent" --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:26:14 -0600 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ground altercations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It looks like everyone is going to have a different history as none of the altercations I was in during my younger foolish days ever ended up on the ground. But then again they usually involved a weapon and several gang members.... But the best self defense story is one that never happened. I was young, in my mid 30's. At the grocery store, about 2 am, getting my wife some flu mediation. Not many cars in the lot as I came out of the store. I jumped on my Harley and while I was getting my keys, around the corner came 4 gang want-to-bees swinging chains and a baseball bat walking right at me. I took out my 9 mm (I legally carry) and pointed it at the ground. They simply changed directions. When I got home, I called a friend of mine who was on patrol that night and he took them on a free ride to the country jail as they were still hanging around the same store. <<> --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 10:43:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Art VanVranken" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Rolling with Grapplers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are right on with that. We had a BJJ instructor in our TKD School for a short time. It was great rolling with him and learning even the most basic moves. Our school has a State Trooper who worked quite a lot of undercover work and was schooled in some of the same techniques the the BJJ instructor was teaching. Between the both of them it was a great learning experience for everyone involved. I believe bringing the techniques to the point of medium discomfort has as much impact as going all the way and have the possibility of broken bones or torn muscles etc., and the possibility of a law suit, especially in these times! [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg which had a name of BackGrnd.jpg] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest