Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:13:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #82 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Stay with what you know (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. Re: Deadly techniques (Craig Zeigler) 3. my art, your art (J R Hilland) 4. HKD Competition (Jared Circle) 5. Training in Estacada, Oregon. (David Weller) 6. Re: Open Letter (Bruce Sims) 7. Re: Apples and Oranges (James E. McHie Jr.) 8. Re: Deadly techniques (Bruce Sims) 9. RE: Re: Apples and Oranges (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:25:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stay with what you know Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a question to those on the digest. Let me preface by saying I began my training in Kung Fu many years ago. I only trained in kung Fu for about 9 months, and over the years have only kept moderately familiar with the Chinese arts. I then left the Kung Fu school and began training in Tae Kwon Do (WTF) I was there for quite a while, but after the death of the senior instructor left that school too. Although I read about other styles, and have some experience in these two styles I don't claim to be an authority on Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do. You will not hear me comment about the details of Hapkido, Aikido, or another style that I have not spent years understanding. I currently train in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and have been for more than 25 years. This gives me the right to comment about Soo Bahk Do, Moo Duk Kwan or maybe Korean Martial Arts in general. I have also been cross training in jujitsu for about 15 years and feel qualified to comment on grappling, I say all this because it seems many of the members here (not everyone) are making comments like an arm chair quarterback. I can appreciate opinion, however when you discuss a particular discipline with someone with experience in that art, you should be careful or you can make yourself look stupid. Many believe the art they study is the best. The truth is no art is the best. Soo Bahk Do is my base. I like it because of the discipline, the standardization of technique, and it offers a well rounded approach to training. Strikes, Kicks, Join Locks, Knees, elbows, head butts, but it lacks grappling. This is why I cross train. People seem to be commenting on BJJ, after watching a few UFC matches, and practicing a few chokes or locks. My point if you don't spend time on the mat training, sweating, and bleeding in the art you are discussing you should probably be asking questions not making statements. Why do people feel the need to discuss, give advice, or down play an art they have only very limited experience practicing?????? FWIW JC --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:15:35 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Deadly techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Randall Sexton wrote: > Where do you get new training partners at...as one dies each session? > Randy > > >> "......If you don't practice your "deadly" techniques >> at mach speed with power and all the >> disadvantages of terain and clothing against a person >> who is bent on slamming the back of your head on the >> ground and wrapping you up like a cheap christmas >> present then you really have no idea of what works and >> what does not work....." > > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > Randy, I think you're missing the point. One of the finer points of being a martial artist is control. You have to know how far you can go, actually go there and then back off. Martial arts to me is the art of self defense. It is important to know what you can do, what you should do, and how to do it, so when the time comes, you can stay alive. IMHO too many folks treat martial arts as a game or a sport which takes a great deal away from the true use of this knowledge. -Craig --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:27:06 -0600 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] my art, your art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is starting to sound a little like my martial art can beat up your martial art. Everyone has difference experiences and different values on the martial arts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I prefer traditional hapkido and it has saved my can on several occasions. But that does not mean that I should demand that everyone study hapkido. The Gracie's are very good at what they do, nothing wrong with that. It does not mean that everyone should have study their art. So lets please discontinue with the mine is better than yours. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jared Circle" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 02:06:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD Competition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce- In regards to your post on HKD techniques and competition: "The purpose is to stop the fight any way possible and what happens to the attacker is not a limiting factor." You make a good point about HKD technique as I have been taught. Dehabilitation of your attacker should not be a concern in a real situation, as it is often necessary, and it would be a mistake to allow an attacker a second chance. However... "Hapkido does not allow for competition. It keeps the debilitating strikes, does not stop the techniques before they become fx, dislocations, strains and sprains." I must disagree with this statement. HKD competitoin is possible and a common practice in my Master's gym. Sparring is done without pads and the only limitation is no intentional attacks to the face, neck, or groin, in the spirit of competition. This practice extends to tournaments that include other gyms from within Kum Moo Kwon and from without. With proper control almost all HKD techniques can be executed without significant injury to the opponent. Even at the most competitive levels, the driving ambition to win, whatever is the stake, should not exceed the desire to remain moral and ethical. Competition in this sence does not permit for an type of all out attitude bent on dehabilitating your opponent. This is an essential difference between sport and reality (and by all rational accounts, when in the ring, Gracie is a sportsman and would not, out of respect for his opponent, spear out an eyeball). Respectfully, JEC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: David Weller Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:22:39 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training in Estacada, Oregon. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dojang Digest members, I have a friend who is looking for advice and locations for self defense training in Estacada, Oregon. She is a dog owner and ideally would like to train WITH her Rhodesian Ridgeback. I've never heard of such a thing or heard it discussed on here. Any good schools in that area? (for training with or without the dog.) I honestly think the dog can probably take care of itself, but it did get me thinking. Or does anyone have any recommendations on books/videos that might assist? thanks in advance for the assistance, Dave Weller PS, I will put 500.00 on the untrained Ridgeback in a death match against Bruce. Have a nice lunch Scruffy! --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:43:38 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Open Letter Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Brooke: ".....It is apparent to me that you do not view me as senior enough on this list to respond to my questions/posts. I can live with that. However I will keep responding to your posts....." Not sure what this comment was about but there were a few things in your post for which, perhaps, you could use some thoughts from me. a.) There is nothing special about the Hapkido I practice. Except that it comes from a particular teacher it is amazingly like any other kind of Hapkido. I DO have a "lot" of confidence in my art. But that does not come from the art. It comes from the effect that training has on me. Nor do I consider Hapkido as an answer "for any/all situations." However I do believe that the martial approach is "my" answer to any and all situations. I could go on to explain what I am saying yet one more time, but honestly, I don't know if you are really going to get it. b.)"....If Hapkido was the end-all (key word here) "one-on-one" fighting art, why wouldn't some Hapkido bad-a$$ take on all comers, who signed the right legal documents, and market Hapkido as the new ultimate art?...." Sorry, Brooke, but this is the very same "absolutist" thinking that continually sets these discussions down the wrong path. Are you going to tell me that Marines are "the ultimate"? What about the Delta Force? What about the SAS? What about the Foreign Legion? You are not going to understand where I am coming from because you want there to be some "ultimate". Perhaps you are concerned that somehow you will be wasting your precious time if you don't identify and invest in that one art which is superior to all others. Why are you automatically reducing Hapkido to "competition"? What is it that makes you see Hapkido as something where people much be "shown", or where I could possibly care what other people think. I don't have a problem if you are bothered by what other people think of you. Thats OK. In the final analysis, though, I have never seen much pay-off for being concerned about what people see me do, or the judgements they make. Whats the point, yes? "......Always remember (and all the BJJ guys laugh about this), all the finger breaking, eye gouges, eardrum/nose/throat stuff you allude to, they can and will do that too...they just do it to you from a better/superior POSITION....." Thats fine. More power to them. Nobody says they can't do that. The competition in which Helio Gracie had his arm broken and refused to admit defeat pretty much summed-up BJJ for me. If a person has no intention of being defeated, even if others view that he has been, the entire undertaken is silly. I am afraid that as long as I speak in terms of a traditional martial art and you speak in terms of a martial sport, this discussion is going to go 'round and 'round. We are simply speaking of two diffent purposes. ".......I would like to hear from you/others what strategies/techniques you employ to defend against someone who is soley trying to get you onto the ground? ....." Yes, Brooke, I am sure you would. Then we would be back to talking about this whole affair from the standpoint of you view. Can we, just once, speak in terms of this matter from MY point of view? a.) Where will your competitors be in their lives in 20 years? Not too interested in some short cocky answer like "champion of the world". I am talking about where will they be in their own lives? b.) Where will BJJ be in 20 years? I can see where Kyukushinkai, Jeet Kun Do, Judo and a number of other arts have wound up. What is it that will keep BJJ from fracturing ans spawning a whole group of "look-a-likes" like every other art. And if that is expected to happen, what makes BJJ any different than anything else. c.) How are the communities any better for BJJ? Oh, I know that the military uses some of their stuff now. But before BJJ the military used Karate, TKD, Judo, Kempo and is currently trying its own blend in the Marines? Now, before you answer, Brooke, I am going to tell you what your response is going to be. Yours and that of a lot of other folks. "Who cares?!?" "Who cares about all that 'head stuff'?" And that is where we are not going to connect. The discussion is just fine as long as all people want to talk about is essentially who gets to be the "top dog". Maybe you don't know him, but there is a guy named Choe who is doing time right now because he killed a man in an arguement. Apparently he was good enough to write books, make tapes and teach students. When it came down to actually living his art, he failed. Think about it. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:46:20 -0500 From: "James E. McHie Jr." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Apples and Oranges Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Sims wrote: "The outcome is predictable as long as a limit is placed on the Hapkido." I have just recently started BJJ training as a supplement to Hapkido and I believe I can safely say that although BJJ has a sport component to it, the instructor I am learning from definitely does not end his instruction with match applications. I think Brooke's questions are great, and are of a similar thought process to how I have ended up looking into this type of crosstraining. Styles that emphasize groundfighting are "in" right now, and nothing I trained with in Hapkido was really effective in preparing defense against the dedicated ground fighter once you end up on the ground. Maybe that was the fault of my prior instructor. But I am finding the basics of BJJ to be a nice complement to Hapkido--how do I get back up again after a ground fighter has effectively put me on the gruond? What are my best options for defenses if I want or need to stay upright? I think the best way to know these things is to work with these practitioners. Assimilate that knowledge, apply it to what I know. If you are teaching a blended style, I think you should be up front about it. But I would not disparage BJJ or even try to put one over the other in comparison. I would generally categorize Hapkido is primarily stand-up and BJJ primarily ground, with relative strengths in each. Bruce Wims wrote: "If Royce Gracie challenged me to a match, I would probably show-up with my sword. He would be using HIS favorite techniques and "I" would (arguably) be using MY favorite. "NOT FAIR", says you. And I say, "'fair' has nothing to do with it." This is NOT about being 'fair'. It is not about winning and losing. It is about the need to survive. FWIW." I read this argument to be that all hand-to-hand martial arts are obsolete unless you are interested in history. Aside from the mental crutch it creates as becoming your sole first reaction, nothing substitutes for a firearm in a self defense situation. Would you complain of fairness then if in this challenge Royce brought a handgun? If the need to survive is paramount, and your criteria apply, then you would have no basis to complain. We know that hand-to-hand arts are not obsolete. If you are not carrying a gun, or your sword, or in any of the many places where the use of such is impossible or impractical, knowing these skills can be life-saving. You may feel as if the trust placed upon you from the prior generation is to keep their teachings static--that what they taught was complete unto itself and therefore the trust placed on you is only to pass that along as completely an exactingly as it was passed to you. I guess my response to that is that is not what they did, nor what their predecessors did, so why that would be a burden placed upon us I do not know. Jim McHie --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:46:06 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Deadly techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, Ray. I understand completely. "....As I say, go down to Torrance or send one of your blackbelt students down to Torrance to roll with one of their boys. Sign the waver, no rules. Use all the deadly techniques you wish. I suspect they will go along with whatever you're after....." Yes, I understand that for YOU this answers questions. But what if, just for a couple of minutes, we don't play according to YOUR take. Yes, I understand what you are saying. Yes. But since I seem to be the odd man out, here and maybe I am not understanding the wisdom that you have to impart, how about for just one post we speak from MY position, yes? I understand your position about winning and losing--- now what about my position? Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat affirms Korean traditions or validates some value system other than winning or losing. Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat produces better Character when all of the BJJ proponents I have met are so contencious. Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat will address or reconcile varied opinions about the Hapkido community, answer long-standing questions, or bring personalities together. From what I can see BJJ only adds divisiveness to an already divided community. I think we have the idea that BJ is some kind of venue where bigger, stronger, and tougher yet again proves that might makes right. Yes, I understand. Now what about what "I" am interested in. What does it do for me? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Apples and Oranges Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:58:27 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net loved those comments. many people who train and read this digest could get into a fight tomorrow against 3 attackers and still come off on top. however we could fight 1 person and get battered. we can only train and prepare for the worst. I have played Rugby as school boy and still play. as you may know we do not play with alot of padding the punishment can be quite severe. you will be tackled from every angle. you will get hit hard. when you get hit hard you will see stars. if you are holding the ball and you are at the bottom of the pile you will boots and fists in the head from some very BIG guys! I'm not saying that this is real life or the worst case scenario. but this training has helped me resist tackles and being taken down. being taken down may be bad but when there is a big gang that's when you know you're in trouble. I suggest spinning to evade a tackle. I know they use this move in GRID IRON. anyway anyone visiting the UK let me know. I'll take them to my rugby club. there will be no waivers -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: 27 February 2005 13:25 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Apples and Oranges ".....If you want to debate me on this, first thing you need to do is spend some time on the streets. At the very least, you need to get on the mat with some NHB types that you are friendly with and try your theories. Using good safety protocols that is...." There is no need to debate anything because as long as there are qualifiers we will be talking about two different things. Examine some of the posts that have been offered in response and you can draw your own conclusions. 1.) Signing waivers. 2.) Safety protocols. 3.) Types that you are friendly with. The outcome is predictable as long as a limit is placed on the Hapkido. The same is true of ANY event where one approach is limited in deference to the methods of another. You could put me on the mat with the average wrestler, boxer, and anyone else and if you start with "....and here are the rules" you have already put the Hapkido at a disadvantage. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. In the infamous "NHB" contests there are STILL rules. Your being out on the street you are still constrained by rules about "excessive force", yes? The applications of Hapkido have one use and one use only and that is survival under dire circumstances. My sense is that THIS is why there are so many discussions such as the one about BJJ. There are plenty of Hapkido people and plenty of competent Hapkido people. Now WHERE do they get to show what THEIR art can do. There are the battlefields, undercover LEO work, or the odd attack by some carzy with a knife. Other than that one can probably expect to go their whole life and never use the techniques one trains for, and yes, that "does" create issues about "I wonder if this stuff really works." Not to put too fine a point on this---- but somehow I don't think this point of mine is getting across--- let me use an extreme example. If Royce Gracie challenged me to a match, I would probably show-up with my sword. He would be using HIS favorite techniques and "I" would (arguably) be using MY favorite. "NOT FAIR", says you. And I say, "'fair' has nothing to do with it." This is NOT about being 'fair'. It is not about winning and losing. It is about the need to survive. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest