Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:14:57 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #83 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Michael Tomlinson (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: You are purposely ignoring my point (CStovall@nucorar.com) 3. RE: RE:Why we need central authority in Taekwondo (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 4. Re: Its how you train that counts (CStovall@nucorar.com) 5. Re: Re: Deadly techniques (Ray) 6. Pros & Cons of other Arts, etc. (Brooke Thomas) 7. Thief gets whipping (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Michael Tomlinson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In your e-mail to me you called me "a clown." Fine. If we are airing opinions, I think you are a "fraud". So what does this name-calling prove. Nothing in itself. But you are not criticizing from the standpoint of improving anything. You are criticizing from the standpoint of injuring or disparaging and that may merit some thinking about. What I understand is that you believe that training, hard training, and lots more training is the answer. Then I read your posts and looked for how the application of your "training, training and more training" had made a difference. If I am to understand your "T,T & MT" approach to Hapkido produces a person of your disposition then I think you are correct to conclude that there is nothing we have in common. I don't care for the kind of person I experience in you, so we don't have to communicate. But, what bothers me more than a little is that people will note your invoking Hapkido as your art and think that your view-point is categorically Hapkido. Not everyone believes as do I, nor should they. But it may be worthwhile to mention that your approach does not represent Hapkido arts any more than does mine. However there is another part of this that likewise speaks to your lack of Integrity. I note that the "T,T &MT" is something that you invoke for effect. Like the guy who represents himself as "authentic Hapkido" in supposed contrast to others, your "T,T MT" approach could be construed as saying that somehow other people don't train. I mention this because you have used this position to punctuate various posts where you have held the matter of discussion in distain and somehow unworthy of your time. This usually winds up with you suggesting that you have nothing more to say and that you are off to "train" which is what "really matters". But this doesn't stop you from chirping-up selectively in various strings. You don't reconcile anything, nor resolve anything. All you do add your "me-too-but-talk-is-worthless-I'm-gonna-go-train-cuz-thats-all-that-really-counts" and duck-out on accounting for your contribution. As I say I tend to judge people just like you do. Maybe you don't like my approach to Korean traditions of KMA. Thats OK. To me it seems like your take on things is awfully self-serving. Or is that the way that you see Hapkido arts--- self-seving, I mean? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:50:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: You are purposely ignoring my point Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Look killer...it's a funny thing to me that you're the only one that I get into a beef with...time and time again. It's a funny thing that you seem to be the ONLY person that folks get into a beef with. You prissed on here and did some Monday morning quarterbacking on some folks that have been in more fights BETWEEN THEMSELVES than you and yours will ever see in a lifetime. And that's fine...that's your right. All I said was to go and have a "friendly little roll" with some people that do this sort of thing, and the physical reality of it might offer up some different conclusions. I suggested something that might be of benefit to you. But, I understand if you don't want to do that. Just be straight on one thing...I never said one disparaging thing about Hapkido. I asked you if you had ever used one of those "decapitating elbows", and your silence speaks volumes. Keep on "keeping it real". CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE:Why we need central authority in Taekwondo Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:08:14 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gregg; Are you one of GM Chae Sun Yi's students? I was in one of his schools back in Kansas. Thanks, Brian -----Original Message----- From: . DixiePride [mailto:metalkahn@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 7:35 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Why we need central authority in Taekwondo Mr. Rubinfield Sir, I must agree with you.I have often wished that all the styles could get their act together and unify into one central authority.It would give the belts we hold much more standing in the martial arts community.I have often been frustrated that our art has become so splintered and factional. I have trained for several years with the I.T.A.,who relatively closely adhere to the teachings of General Choi's "Chang Hon" system.I always looked to the I.T.F. website forums for questions I had concerning my training, when one arose outside my dojang.I would be studying with the I.T.F. if there were an I.T.F. dojang in my area,but there isnt.Since General Choi's death I dont even know which I.T.F. is the real one, there are three "official" I.T.F.'s now.If you stand back and look at the system as an outsider it makes the whole thing look like a big joke,although General Choi spent his life trying to unify and perfect his wonderful system.It also irks me when I visit a school who is teaching General Choi's style and find that they have changed movements in a form or taken forms out of the 24 form Chang Hon set.I believe that each pattern and each movement is there for a reason.To slowly help a student perfect the techniques of our system. In my opinion our art should adopt the same ideolgy that has helped the United States government survive so many years."United we stand,divided we fall" Just my two cents worth,for whats its worth. Sincerely, Gregg --__--__-- Message: 4 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:45:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Its how you train that counts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Have you ever been guillotine choked so hard that your neck pops and you almost threw up from the pressure after you tapped out? Have you ever been top-wrist locked from the mount position with an aggressive far side grapevine thrown in for good measure...it feels like everything from your hip to your elbow is going to snap into little pieces (and they will). Have you ever had the full telephone armlock with wrist compression applied from the scarf hold position...if you did you'd know how crippling this would be if taken to its extreme. Have you ever been crushed by a triangle choke (arm or leg)...if you did you'd know the potential lethality of these maneuvers if taken to their extreme. Have you ever been hip-locked? Have you ever felt a heel hook? Have you ever been put into the various neck cranks/cervical submissions available from the side mount and scarf hold positions? Did you happen to see Frank Mir snap Tim Sylvia's forearm in two like a dried up twig? Have you ever REALLY grappled a 200+ pound powerlifter? Have you ever tried to get someone off of you that was REALLY trying to hold their position AND attack you at the same time? Have you ever been on the receiving end of a full body tackle and/or realistic throw from someone that is REALLY trying to put you on your back? Have you ever been squeezed so hard that you don't know if you can draw another breath, but yet you STILL find the spirit to fight on...win or lose. Have you ever put on gloves and tried to see how hard and fast you can REALLY hit another human being who has no interest in standing there and letting you do it...and hitting YOU back at the same time. What this "martial sport" style trainee is trying to figure out is how in the world you can consider yourself so deadly when all you do is stand around and "play fight". What I'm trying to understand (from someone who has done and had done to him all of the aforementioned) is how "sport" submissions are so tame. The "tap" exists for two reasons. One, what's being done is for real. Two, everybody wants to live to train another day (and there are real consequences to applying submissions and chokes). I can always punch someone in the groin and gouge someone in the eye. Or, stab them with a knife, and run over them with my car. Whatever... What people have to ask themselves is this. "Have I ever really dealt with realistic energy, or have I just been kidding myself?" Never mind what your teachers tell you. What can YOU do from as close to REAL experience as possible. I can always gouge someone's eyes and twist their fingers if I have to...BIG DEAL!!! What I also know is that once I gravitated toward "sport style" training I can now handle the real world physicality of a fight. I don't need someone to dummy for me...I actually PREFER that you fight back and try to kick my arse. Do you know why? Because that's where the REAL learning begins. What's even better is that I can deal with varying escalations of violence. What does the high school teacher do that's being attacked by a 16-year-old football player who didn't take his meds that morning? Hit them with the Bruce Sims "killa killa elbow ya'll"? I'd take them down and hold them until back-up arrived...with minimal injury to both parties. What if it's a violent attack from a stranger? Then they can get something snapped in half before they get choked unconscious! Does that sound confidant? It should...because I ACTUALLY DO THIS STUFF EVERY WEEK!!! I don't need to rely on some imaginary wrist break, or holographic eyejab. We just DO IT. Difficult concept to understand? Yes, when you've spent your entire career making cooperative junior black belts do the "jump up-and-down on their toes and slap their chests like an idiot dance" then it probably IS a difficult concept to understand. Now, Bruce will take everything that I just said and proclaim it as "anti-KMA" or "pro-Gracie" or whatever convenient "file 13" label that comes to mind. The only thing I am is "pro-reality". Don't tell me what you can do...show me. Show me against your buddy that's giving you some progressive resistance and real energy because the crackhead on the street will SURE AS HELL give you some energy to deal with. You can talk all day long about lethal force, but at the end of the day you either know what you can do from experience or you've chosen to fool yourself. If this post has offended anyone...GOOD!!! You gotta break some eggs to make that good old fried chicken batter like mama used to make. This is NOT a knock against Hapkido, or TKD, or TSD, or whatever else. This is also NOT an attempt to promote GJJ/BJJ, or Sambo, or Shooto, or kickboxing, or whatever. What it IS is a knock against folks who think they can spend their lives in SIMULATION MODE and come out ahead of us poor little 'ole ignorant "sport style" trainers. Actually, you can THINK it all you want, but if you venture to let it slip from your mouth then you're going to get an earful from me and mine. You can either gear up and train...or you can't. You either know it from doing it...or you don't. Age, sex, and IQ be damned. For what it's worth. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Deadly techniques To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:26:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "....As I say, go down to Torrance or send one of your > blackbelt students down to Torrance to roll with one > of their boys. Sign the waver, no > rules. Use all the deadly techniques you wish. I > suspect they will go along with whatever you're after....." > > Yes, I understand that for YOU this answers questions. > But what if, just for a couple of minutes, we don't > play according to YOUR take. Yes, I understand what > you are saying. Yes. But since I seem to be the odd > man out, here and maybe I am not understanding the > wisdom that you have to impart, how about for just one > post we speak from MY position, yes? I understand your > position about winning and losing--- now what about my position? Winning and losing?!?! We must not be communicating here. I care not about winning or losing. I only care about surviving. Seems like you are again changing your position, or at least changing the thread you started. Starting threads is good. Going off on a tangent in the middle of a thread is, ummm, not so good. Or perhaps your original thread is now closed in your mind and you have moved on. If so, then my bad... it seems to me that you are still on your original thought. [other tangents snipped] In hopes of bringing the lack of deadly techniques in BJJ or the lack of effectiveness in BJJ thread to and end please allow me to say... No one, that I've noticed, has said BJJ is 'better' than HKD or TKD or TSD. No one has said you and I are wasting our time in HKD and that we should drop it and focus only on BJJ. What is being said is anyone that thinks they can easily employ HKD's deadly techniques against a well-trained in-shape experienced BJJ grappler (like Royce Gracie), one-on-one and unarmed, is most likely over confident in themself and/or their art. How to prove otherwise? Take a bus ride down to Torrance. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Pros & Cons of other Arts, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This post isn't exactly penned for Mr. Sims but I guess I got a lot of this BJJ discussion started when I questioned what was wrong with adding-in/cross-training in another art...in my case BJJ? Mr. Sims, you made a couple of good points in your last post to me. First, let me try to explain where I'm coming from. Hapkido is my primary art and I am not giving it up. I mentioned back several posts ago that I knew of a extreme BJJ fighter who evidentially thought he didn't need to run away from 3 guys in a parking garage in Santa Monica (who pulverized him). Overconfidence? I don't know, but granted, BJJ does attract a tough crowd. My origional BJJ instructor laments that he didn't learn to kick/punch until fairly late in his wrestling/jujitsu/BJJ career and still isn't 100% comfortable with it. He has told me that it is better to learn kick/punch first as they may be harder to learn after you think you have a ground game (which can take a long time/lifetime). However, I CAN'T stop this guy shooting in on me! If I can't stop the shoot, all I am saying is maybe I should know something (even a little) when I hit the ground? Can you please just agree with me on this one point? I believe, and again to "compare" BJJ and Hapkido, BJJ is a great one-on-one art but pretty lousy when the dude's friend/brother/cousin starts to kick your head when you have his loved one in an upsidedown armbar. Hapkido is an extremely effective art for facing multiple opponents when you can't run. As I have mentioned before on this list, Master Steve Sexton is a traditional 6th degree Hapkido instructor who happens to be a bouncer and has had easily 300 real fights with multiple attackers with every weapon you can imagine...I know Hapkido works....I am not bagging on it. I know Mr. Hilland just posted he too is tired of 'my art can beat up your art' but this was never my intention. I too also believe that at the end of the day, when we're all senior citizens, being the baddest cage fighter on the block probably isn't the goal and more than likely didn't contribute anything to the community. You are correct sir...living the martial way is very important. Point well made and well received. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:05:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Thief gets whipping Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Don't try this at home... Ray ------------------------------------ Thief gets whipping from 11 year-old karate kid BY VIVIENNE GREEN-EVANS Monday, February 28, 2005 www.jamaicaobserver.com A thief in Half-Way-Tree last Monday received the shock of his life and a bloody nose when he tried to snatch a woman's cell phone through her car window and got beaten up by her 11 year-old son. Young Steven Edwards, who holds a black belt in karate, 11 first-place trophies in local Tae Kwon Do tournaments and three second-place victories in Zendo competitions, said it was just a year ago that a knife-wielding thief stole his mother's cell phone and necklace and he could not let it happen a second time. "I was angry," Steven told the Observer last Friday. "That's why I jumped up. I reacted because I didn't want him to take away the phone." His mother, Marion Edwards, a 33-year-old administrative assistant, who said she had no objection to publicising the story as well as her son's picture, told the Observer that she was driving Steven home after karate training at about 8:00 pm, when the thief approached her car window after she pulled up at a traffic light in Half-Way-Tree. "My window was down," she said. "I was on the phone. I just saw this guy walk up to me, I don't know where he come from, and said, 'Whaapen Mummy. Weh yu say, Mummy? Everything all right? Give me the phone!' and he grabbed on to the phone, but because it is the flip phone, I held the bottom and he held the top. He started to pull it and I started to scream." Steven, who was in the passenger seat, jumped into action. Assuring his mom everything would be all right, he grabbed the man by the throat with one hand and used the other to pound him with sharp, quick and direct blows to his temple, eyes and nose. His mother was petrified. "I was so panicky. I can't tell you what happened. I only know the guy started bleeding from the nose and Steven said, 'Is alright, is alright Mummy'." The stunned thief let go of the phone and Steven urged his mother to drive. "Even when Steven said 'drive', the way how me nervous, me can't find the gas pedal, my foot just slipped. I finally was able to drive," Edwards said. She said that after the incident, she notified the Half-Way-Tree police, but did not bother to make an official report, because last year when she reported her stolen phone nothing came of it. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest