Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:21:13 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #84 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Central authority (Tkdsid@aol.com) 2. true story (J R Hilland) 3. RE: hapkido and bjj (Howard Spivey) 4. JC stay with what you know...... (George Peters) 5. Bruce's Thoughts (FirstPe315@aol.com) 6. What Does It Matter? (The Tink) 7. Wanting to chime in...maybe.... (L. Veuleman) 8. Re: true story (Ray) 9. Martial Spirit (michael tomlinson) 10. Re: Thoughts from a killers' point of view.... (Bruce Sims) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:38:32 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Central authority Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have always trained in New York for those that asked. A college in NY is accepted in California ig it is accredited. A doja will not accept a dojang's training if it is across the street. The infighting, fraud and stupidity has to end. One should never see 3 10th dans on the same avenue by the way. That is truly BS! Sid --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:46:40 -0600 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] true story Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Way back when I was a 3rd dan, several decades ago, my wife and I were looking for a place to teach hapkido in this new part of Texas we had just moved to. We taught a class at an 'American style taekwondo' dojang. Not really sure what it was, but it did not resemble taekwondo. They did groin kicks and point sparring. You tag them and the sparring stops. Any way, after class the chief instructor, a 3rd dan, asked me to spar. He continuously kept trying to kick me in the groin and opened himself up nicely for a axe kick to his head. It knocked him on the ground. He came up charging at me full speed and tried to tackle me at the legs. In hapkido, we have many techniques against that. The one I used is when you place the left hand, thumb up against the base of the skull as a guide and as he moves in and down to grab you, the right hand goes over and under his neck, thumb up (you take his head to your right hip) and place is head under your right shoulder. Kneeling back on the right knee at the same time takes his direction and balance down to the ground where he was going any way. To continue the choke, simple lift up your right thumb to the sky. A simple one handed technique. He tried to fight it and I just turned up the volume gently and turned him away from his students watching the whole thing and quietly whispered in his ear that loosing ones temper is not conductive. I told him that if he would calm down I would let him go. I let him go and he did it again - 2 more times! On the 3rd time he tried to take me to the ground, I place a left knife hand against his artery during the choke with my right hand and let him take a nap. My wife was watching this whole thing and trying to do everything she could to keep from laughing. I kept telling the fellow that if he kept this up he was going to take a short nap. I did not want him to look bad in front of his students although I had never met an instructor who lost his temper before. But he left me no choice. <<<".......I would like to hear from you/others whatstrategies/techniques you employ to defend against someone who is soley trying to get you onto theground? ....." >>> --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:24:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: hapkido and bjj Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ray terry (i believe it was) wrote: "....As I say, go down to Torrance or send one of your blackbelt students down to Torrance to roll with one of their boys. Sign the waver, no rules. Use all the deadly techniques you wish. I suspect they will go along with whatever you're after....." to which bruce sims responded (complete quote is edited, but i believe the essential meaning is intact): "...Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat affirms Korean traditions or validates some value system other than winning or losing. Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat produces better Character when all of the BJJ proponents I have met are so contencious. Regarding BJJ perhaps you can tell me how a roll on the mat will address or reconcile varied opinions about the Hapkido community, answer long-standing questions, or bring personalities together. From what I can see BJJ only adds divisiveness to an already divided community." bruce, the way i've been reading this discussion / debate, it is essentially about how hapkido would deal with an opponent who is a skilled bjj groundfighter, and who manages to take a skilled hapkiko practitioner to the ground. seems to me that to digress into character, the divisions in the hapkikdo community, korean traditions and value systems and the like are really not germane to the theme of the discussion. as a hapkido student, i appreciate, and even admire, your commitment to the "art" aspects of our martial art. but i think that the central question in this discussion is purely technique-related: if a skilled hapkido practitioner is taken to the ground by a skilled bjj practitioner, how does the hapkido guy respond? while i myself don't pretend to have many answers other than a few baics, all of which involve escaping from the opponent and getting back to my feet once it's safe to do so, it seems to me to be a perfectly valid question, and one that can be discussed solely within the context of physical responses to being taken to the ground. after all, we hold out traditional hapkido to the public as an art of self-defense, don't we? regards, howard --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:27:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] JC stay with what you know...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Well said. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 5 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:57:34 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce - Although you maybe have gotten a bad rap, I think you are missing what some of the people are saying. Some of your thoughts are accurate but the reality is there is a difference between theory and practicality. There are a number of tactics that I have used in Hapkido over the years that worked in the practice arena but came up wanting when real life intereferred or even a more intense training confrontation (like Grappling). When I left my first Hapkido school the theory was that Hapkido works on the ground, the techniques and principles are the same and you can poke eyes, grab hair, crush a spine at the apex of the skull etc...But when I went out and started grappling I found that those skills really did go right out the door the first time I fell to the ground with somebody who REALLY knew what they were doing. These guys are strong, fast and have a variety of options to hurt you very fast and from a psychological standpoint, if you don't have ground skills, your mind is typically pre-occupied with protecting yourself than being pro-active. This is the same process that takes place from a stand-up position when you are really HIT for the first time. These "responses" you are looking for take time and training and each RANGE you fight in, needs years of practice. You may be great at stand-up fighting and Hoshinsul, but you must completely re-train this mindset and skill on the ground and that takes years. It's analagous to a College basketball coach that begins there year with a good 15 plays that, drawn up on paper, look awesome. Over the course of the season, he has scrapped 50% of his plays because they do not regularly work. Hapkido is no different than Aikido, Karate, BJJ and more. Many of their traditional "tried-and-true" techniques would never work, they woud find, if they invited the local Hapkido school over to test them on. But nobody ever does that so they continue in a sort of rose-colored-glass world. Those who cross train soon find the strengths and weakness of their style when put up against skilled practitioners of other arts. Personally Bruce, I don't think Hapkido is wanting. I am definitely non-politically correct in my belief that I think there ARE superior martial-arts and inferior ones in terms of what is offered. Hapkido is the best in my opinion which is why I have been doing it for 23 years (but whose counting) and we do grappling in my association. I'm glad we do. Because I was a damn good stand-up fighter and found a lot of success in grappling as a Hapkido student (because I grappled TKD, Hapkido and Judo guys) but when it came time to train with people who trained in grappling ALL THE TIME, I found out that I had been wrong for many years. You too would find out the same thing if you took the risk to your ego that you may need to make to become the martial-artist you could be and did what I did. Let me tell you, it wasn't easy. But necessary for my evolution. 7 years later, I'm glad I did it. Due to the length of this post, this would be my .04c Jeff --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:00:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "The Tink" To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] What Does It Matter? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Seung.... I have no idea what all the conflict is over...My base is TKD... I wrestled when I was in High School and a few years after...I have also cross trained in Okinawan, Japanese, and Philippino styles as well as some Hapkido training...Is one better than the other?...That all depends on what you are after and what you want to achieve...I cross train to learn and gain knowledge...to expand my knowledge and technique base from which I may draw upon at any time... It's good to learn to fight from the ground...has come in handy on a couple of occasions...by the same token ...one needs to know how to defend themselves from standing and seated positions as well...which art teaches all these methods?... Is it necessary for a practitioner to go all the way with every technique while training?...To what end?...We train so that our body instinctively reacts to situations with which we are confronted...How an individual reacts has absolutely nothing to do with the way they are trained...ever individual reacts differently to the same situation...some don't react...they freeze... Not every situation calls for "ALL THE WAY defenses...it is up to the individual to decide what is called for in in each particular situation.. regardless in what art they train... I see a martial artist as having 4 choices in a threatening situation: 1: Evade the situation by walking away or exiting appropriately 2: Control the situation using only the force necessary to gain control 3: Maim the atta cker to the point of being ineffective 4: Kill the attacker as you have no other choice Beyond any of that...what does it matter in what art you train or how you train? MVHO: The One and Only Tink 5th Dan TKD --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:53:13 -0800 (PST) From: "L. Veuleman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Wanting to chime in...maybe.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dang. I have read this 'post to post' commentary for some while. Its pretty nuts. We're calling each other names, making PS comments that dog someone out, battling over crap. I understand the nature of a human in wanting to defend something they believe in, but at the same time, I wish we could disagree respectfully. Not saying that we should all love each other and hold hands and hug, but at least if you are not going to respect someones art or their history or beliefs, respect each other as humans. I, probably like most people here, have lots of things I would like to say regarding these posts, but I don't have time in my life to worry about being berrated and beat down by someone whom I have never met. Sorry to get off on a rant. I don't want everyone to stop talking about Traditional Korean Martial Arts, Modern Training Korean Arts, BJJ, exchanging ideas and disagreements, meeting new friends, seminars, etc, I just don't want to read the digest shaking my head wondering why I spend my time on this computer instead of with my wife. Charlie Veuleman --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] true story To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:53:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > the legs. In hapkido, we have many techniques against that. The one I > used is when you place the left hand, thumb up against the base of the > skull as a guide and as he moves in and down to grab you, the right hand > goes over and under his neck, thumb up (you take his head to your right > hip) and place is head under your right shoulder. Kneeling back on the > right knee at the same time takes his direction and balance down to the > ground where he was going any way. To continue the choke, simple lift up > your right thumb to the sky. A simple one handed technique. Yep, that is a good one. I first learned it in Judo in the 60s. An especially good technique against an unagressive or inexperienced grappler. But you can even see it now and then in an MMA match when basics go out the door. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:05:37 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Spirit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes about the Gracie: Thats fine. More power to them. Nobody says they can't do that. The competition in which Helio Gracie had his arm broken and refused to admit defeat pretty much summed-up BJJ for me. If a person has no intention of being defeated, even if others view that he has been, the entire undertaken is silly. I am afraid that as long as I speak in terms of a traditional martial art and you speak in terms of a martial sport, this discussion is going to go 'round and 'round. We are simply speaking of two diffent purposes. >> I think in a roundabout way you summed up the real meaning to me of what a true martial artist is.. I believe that it doesn't matter what the martial art is you study as long as you develop true "martial spirit"... the fact that no matter what happened Helio will not quit and will fight until he dies IS true martial spirit,, Bruce you talk about working out with a sword...don't you think Martial Spirit is what being a Samurai was all about? That means you never quit even if it means death.. talking about this being silly is in and of itself missing the mark of what martial arts are... the fact that Helio faces death and won't quit...well...that ain't sport bro...that is real martial spirit...if you have that..then you are a true martial artist in my book...if you don't have that attitude..then IMHO you are just a poser that is "playing martial arts"....no personal attack here,, just trying to shore up this idea of sport..real self defense..etc.. Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Thoughts from a killers' point of view.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net “…..Look killer...it's a funny thing to me that you're the only one that I get into a beef with...time and time again. It's a funny thing that you seem to be the ONLY person that folks get into a beef with….” Yes. I guess that’s true. I am what this society would probably call a “killer”. I can’t pretend something like “it was my duty at the time” or I didn’t “let it get to me”. I didn’t ask for that comment but yes, I suppose you are correct. And the only thing I can tell you is that if I had some magic power the first thing I would use it for is to bring those people back. I know I can’t but I do remember what it is like to take away a persons’ life. I do remember that. I hear you talking about how I am somehow a kind of wannabee, sitting here behind this keyboard. And, you are very right I have not experienced any of those techniques you mentioned, and if I thought that I could trade those experiences for the ones I have to carry right now I would make the choice in a second. And, you are probably right to accuse me of dealing with sports in the abstract. Maybe that’s a fair accusation —I don’t really know for sure. I “can” tell you that I know what death is, so when I speak of that, I know THAT is not in the abstract. I do know that. In a way, its a little like when I first got home from overseas and I went to school and all these kids were all caught-up in going out and getting drunk or high like it was really something incredible. And I was kinda sitting listening (at the ripe old age of 22) to this and wondering what planet these spoiled rich kids were from when 6 months before I had to keep myself tanked just to be able to look at myself in the mirror. See what I mean? It’s a matter of proportion, isn’t it? People sitting around in the safety of their community and deciding what constitutes "real combat", after which they go out and hoist a few and go home to their cribs. Know what I mean? Now, you were very right to say that I am not interested in a “friendly roll”. I am not interested in an “unfriendly roll”. I train. I teach. I do research. Sometimes I share stuff if I think it will help out. If you have a problem with me--- if I am the ONLY person you have a problem with---- thank God that you have only problems with one person. Thank God you don’t have to kill that person because you have differences. I originally came to this Net to connect with people who shared a love or interest in Korean martial arts and Korean culture and Korean traditions. To date I have probably spent more time explaining myself, what I believe and why I believe it than I ever really needed to. As far as I can tell it have done no good because people are still saying the same things to me now as they did before I made the effort to communicate my side of the discussion. Now this isn’t suppose to be a “poor me”/”pity-party” letter for Bruce.And it’s a little late for all of that “poor-RVN-vet-welcome-back-parade” bullshit. Too late for me anyhow. All I wanted to say is there is an awful lot of talk about “serious intent” in combat. There has also been a lot of loose talk about who I am and what I am about. Fact is that all you know about me is what you may have gossiped-up among these discussions. That’s pretty much it. Then you draw some conclusions about how all those pieces come together so you can feel better. Its not like things have changed a whole helluva lot since 1973, except, actually I stopped really caring what people thought quite a while ago. Its not like it makes a big difference to me if I make these posts or not, ya’ know? Now, this IS a “martial art” net, and what I carry inside is the result of having consigned myself to a code in the name of some greater good for my society. So strictly speaking what I carry are the consequences of being involved in a martial venture. Make sense? Its part of life being life and I will bet dollars to donuts someone will come back with a post asking what the f*** Sims’ post had to do with Hapkido or martial arts or ???. And that response will be exactly the reason I felt it was import to send this along in the first place. No big deal. That’s all. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest