Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 15:17:19 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #88 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Unsung heroes (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. Technique (Brooke Thomas) 3. central authority (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. One art vs another.....Jye (George Peters) 5. Spirt (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. Defending the take down shoot (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Upcoming Tournament (MoylesT@usa.redcross.org) 8. Re: central authority (Ray) 9. 30th National Collegiate Championships (nctac@ucmap.org) 10. Re: One art vs another.....Jye (Jye nigma) 11. Re: Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors (Jye nigma) 12. Re: Rolling with Grapplers (Jye nigma) 13. Re: Re: Apples and Oranges (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:15:03 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Unsung heroes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric Walker wrote: >A thin and unassuming looking guy, but the most precise practioner, with something else, a *mastery* of the art of hapkido. I've been on the other end of his technique and watched him grapple with well trained people much younger and bigger than him. I've seen him take lumps from smart-ass "what about this or this or this" types/noobs and look bad because as he's told me, "You have two choices, you can let him make you look bad, or you can break him." My reply: Sounds like a great guy, and a wonderful person to train with! It also reminds me of a story (my students are now thinking, "doesn't everything?"). My first hapkido instructor (Don Burns) used to say, "I can't make this move work without hurting you." And then he would let me go. Later I met another hapkido instructor who said exactly the same words to one of his students, and then kicked him solidly in the abdomen so he could do the technique. Which of these guys would you want to train with? Hint: the second guy later went to prison! When I started getting a lot more serious about my art, and getting closer to real-life applications, I found that the safety margin diminished significantly, and the personality of the person I was training with became incredibly important. I try not to train with someone unless I know them, or unless I am willing to be hurt if I'm wrong about him. Before leaving the house to train with one guy, I told my wife, "There's a 50% chance he's going to rip up my shoulder, but I have to go -- his technique is too good!" Turns out that was one of the smartest decisions I made in my life, and I learned a lot as a result. I've also had students who tried to hurt me because they wanted to demonstrate that the techniques they had learned elsewhere were better than what I was teaching them. If I can let them win and leave without getting hurt, I do. I'm not terribly interested in getting involved in mutual combat. But I have hurt a guy because he was trying to hurt me, although I was intending to control him, not hurt him. At one seminar, a big guy had gone through 3 partners, hurting each of them. It was my turn to train with him next, and I gave him a chance, but he tried to hurt me as well. The practice was continuing, so the next time I grabbed both of his thumbs. He freaked and pulled them free, dislocating them momentarily, although I didn't intend to do anything like that. Strangely, after that he was very friendly with me. He had been abused by his instructors in the past, and that sort of abuse was how he determined who the top dog was. Not a terribly healthy way to live! The only other time I dislocated somebody's finger was during Small Circle Jujitsu practice, when I was practicing with Joe Lansdale (founder of Shen Chuan). I felt really badly, but Joe just popped it back in place, said it happens all the time, and went back to teaching me. Now that is someone I want to train with! By the way, Joe is a hapkido man from way back, and also the writer of the screenplay for "Bubba Ho-Tep." If you want to learn more about him, check out his website at: http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan/shen/Shen.htm Ok, that was way more than my two cents, but let me just thank Eric for reminding me again of all the unsung heroes out there that make training fun! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:06:28 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Technique Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Hilland writes..."The one I used is when you place the left hand, thumb up against the base of the skull as a guide and as he moves in and down to grab you, the right hand goes over and under his neck, thumb up (you take his head to your right hip) and place is head under your right shoulder. Kneeling back on the right knee at the same time takes his direction and balance down to the ground where he was going any way. To continue the choke, simple lift up your right thumb to the sky. A simple one handed technique." This is exactly what I was hoping to read. Good stuff. Thank you for posting it. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:02:28 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] central authority Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid I have seen what you have described and it is sad. I have to say, however, that in the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. EVERYTHING is standardized and excepted world wide at other Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Do-Jangs. All instructors testing for the rank of 4th degree and higher test from one source and take it back to there home Do-Jang. New York, California, Korea, Australia, etc. all standardized. It can be a great thing. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 09:02:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] One art vs another.....Jye Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir,(Jye) Excellent points in that post, Sir, but I was wondering why the heck BJJ was an issue on a KMA website. I read Master Cox's post on what his "base" is, and agree also with that to an extent. For all intents and purposes, TSD is what I practice and what I teach, precisely as I have been taught. I just feel that cross-training and cross-dressing should be done behind closed doors. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:30:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Spirt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian You re right. "Its not the size of the dog in the fight, It's the size of the fight in the dog" OOO-RA JC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 08:07:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Defending the take down shoot Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It has been proven in the UFC that the sprawl and the under hooks are the best defense against the shoot. Some others may work but we need to be careful not to confuse theory with realism. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:16:45 -0500 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Upcoming Tournament Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If anyone is interested the following link is for the White Tiger Tournament in April - > US National Team Selection: Connecticut Tom Moyles --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] central authority To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:49:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It seems that the only time you have a central authority is when it is an authority over a smaller org, a splinter group, a fairly new style, etc. Once the system or style gets rather large, e.g. HKD, TKD, TSD, it begins to fragment and the central authority is gone. You see this not only in the KMAs, but also the JMAs, CMAs, FMAs, etc. It isn't always a bad thing and may even move the arts forward instead of having them stagnate. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "nctac@ucmap.org" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:59:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [The_Dojang] 30th National Collegiate Championships Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Collegiate Taekwondo Masters and Competitors, On Friday and Saturday, April 15th and 16th , 2005 the University of California at Berkeley will be proud to host the 30th National Collegiate Championships. This is a qualifying tournament for student athletes who are interested in serving as members of the 2005 US National Collegiate Taekwondo Team. A separate division for high school seniors who want to qualify for the 2005 US National Collegiate team trials will also be held at these collegiate championships. The US Collegiate Taekwondo Team will compete at the 23rd Universiade (Summer World University Games) in Izmir, Turkey. On behalf of the UC Berkeley Martial Arts Program, we cordially invite you to attend this championship. Since its origin thirty years ago, this event has become one of the largest, highest quality, and most popular Collegiate Taekwondo tournaments in the country. The registration packet is included as a file attachment, and is also available on the NCTA website at http://www.ncta-usa.com/colnat.html. This year registration is different from past years in that ONLY online payment will be accepted for COMPETITORS. All other forms and payments must still be submitted via standard mail. Further information is contained in the registration packet. The tournament retains the format from last year. The schedule will be as follows: Friday, April 15: 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM International Taekwondo and other Martial Arts Seminar 10:00 AM - 4:00 PM Weigh-in and credential pick up for all competitors and coaches 2:00 PM - 3:00 PM NCTA General Meeting 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM Coaches Meeting 4:30 PM - 6:30 PM Poomse (forms) competition All ranks 7:00 PM - 9:30 PM Gyoroogi (sparring) competition Color belts 9:30 PM - 10:30 PM Welcome party for NCTA officials, referees, team coaches and VIPs Saturday, April 16: 8:30 AM - 9:30 AM Cal Day ceremony 9:30 PM - 12:00 PM High School Senior Sparring competition 12:00 PM - 1:00 PM Opening ceremonies 1:00 PM - Finish Gyroogi (sparring) competition Black belts For information on all of our upcoming events, please contact the U.C. Berkeley Martial Arts Program office at (510) 642-3268 (phone), (510) 642-5730 (fax), NCTAC@ucmap.org (email), or visit our website at http://www.ucmap.org. We are eager to see all of you on the 30th anniversary of the National Collegiate Taekwondo Championships, hosted by the University of California-Berkeley! Sincerely, Master Russell Ahn Tournament Director 30th NCTA Championships --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:04:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] One art vs another.....Jye To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol...understood. However I think that realistically, one can not speak about 1 martial art without referencing others at some point. Whether it's because of similarities in tactics, the crossings or influences of cultures, or simply to find out how other systems will handle something let's say an attack or defense. One also has to acknowledge the fact that the martial arts is a way of life for many people as well, so whenever there is a meeting of the minds, everyone will bring to the table, something from there life's experience which is pulled from their wy of life. So for instance, this forum could be about americans, but Im black, another may be white, another may be chinese, another puerto rican, etc and yes we'd be talking about things pertaining to america, but t some point the topic will touch on what is...and that what is, is the different paths or backgrounds we all take or have gone through as a specific part of america...the same is true with martial arts. Jye George Peters wrote: Good Sir,(Jye) Excellent points in that post, Sir, but I was wondering why the heck BJJ was an issue on a KMA website. I read Master Cox's post on what his "base" is, and agree also with that to an extent. For all intents and purposes, TSD is what I practice and what I teach, precisely as I have been taught. I just feel that cross-training and cross-dressing should be done behind closed doors. Respectfully, George --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:31:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Open Letter to DD Contributors To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol...I've heard many practitioners of ninjutsu, mke the sy claim that it is the only COMPLETE martial art....yet many of the schools are incorporating BJJ grappling. SO....with that said I'd love to see hapkido vs ninjutsu...lol. ***Now in all seriousness, I have noticed an many many similarities between hkd and ninjutsu s far as some techniques. Jye --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:35:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Rolling with Grapplers To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've noticed some talk about no use of certain tactics that are common in hkd training such as eye gouging, striking the throat, groin, etc... But just think what if those things were allowed in a match against a BJJ person who was proficient at his craft? people seem to forget that if you enable those forbidden tactics for one person, that ALSO means for the other....lol. I sure wouldn't want a grappler taking me down to the ground gouging out my eyes, and elbowing my groin...lol. Jye Art VanVranken wrote: You are right on with that. We had a BJJ instructor in our TKD School for a short time. It was great rolling with him and learning even the most basic moves. Our school has a State Trooper who worked quite a lot of undercover work and was schooled in some of the same techniques the the BJJ instructor was teaching. Between the both of them it was a great learning experience for everyone involved. I believe bringing the techniques to the point of medium discomfort has as much impact as going all the way and have the possibility of broken bones or torn muscles etc., and the possibility of a law suit, especially in these times! [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg which had a name of BackGrnd.jpg] _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:50:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Apples and Oranges To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can kind of understand what you are saying about the rules issue. For me coming from kung fu to TKD when I couldn't do things that were 2nd nature to me like sweeping, it kind of put me in a box....BUT ...if one is proficient in his or her skill, they should be able to improvise. There are alot of people who learn an art follow it to a 'T'...but the truth of their skills is in whether or not they can improvise. No matter how you look at it, when you fight or get in some physical confrontation, there are rules...for instance, if you get into a fight with someone, you can't just kill them as you please...or else you'll serve jail time. The same is true with maiming someone, that could come back to bite ya. So there are rules still. But also, someone who is really all about their art should be able to have the proper control to perform or not perform a technique. What that means is if someone attacks you and they are simply drunk and not thinking properly and don't really pose a threat to you, re you going to react with the same method you'd use if someone had a knife and was intending on killing you? I would think and hope not. If we just react with what we learn, we are then robots of the art. If we can react yet still be thinking and well calculating, then we have actually learned something good from our art. So in a nut shell, who cares if in a tournament you can't rip someone's testicles off, or stick a finger in their eye, that just means that the chances of yours getting ripped off and poked also are down. But seriously, one should be able to work their system on all levels. Jye Sims wrote: There is no need to debate anything because as long as there are qualifiers we will be talking about two different things. Examine some of the posts that have been offered in response and you can draw your own conclusions. 1.) Signing waivers. 2.) Safety protocols. 3.) Types that you are friendly with. The outcome is predictable as long as a limit is placed on the Hapkido. The same is true of ANY event where one approach is limited in deference to the methods of another. You could put me on the mat with the average wrestler, boxer, and anyone else and if you start with "....and here are the rules" you have already put the Hapkido at a disadvantage. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. In the infamous "NHB" contests there are STILL rules. Your being out on the street you are still constrained by rules about "excessive force", yes? The applications of Hapkido have one use and one use only and that is survival under dire circumstances. My sense is that THIS is why there are so many discussions such as the one about BJJ. There are plenty of Hapkido people and plenty of competent Hapkido people. Now WHERE do they get to show what THEIR art can do. There are the battlefields, undercover LEO work, or the odd attack by some carzy with a knife. Other than that one can probably expect to go their whole life and never use the techniques one trains for, and yes, that "does" create issues about "I wonder if this stuff really works." Not to put too fine a point on this---- but somehow I don't think this point of mine is getting across--- let me use an extreme example. If Royce Gracie challenged me to a match, I would probably show-up with my sword. He would be using HIS favorite techniques and "I" would (arguably) be using MY favorite. "NOT FAIR", says you. And I say, "'fair' has nothing to do with it." This is NOT about being 'fair'. It is not about winning and losing. It is about the need to survive. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest