Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 03:05:17 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #92 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: The sprawl (jakskru) 2. protection on the street (KO-Online) 3. What WILL protect you from muggers! (Tkdsid@aol.com) 4. Re: men rob six in tae kwon do class (Craig Zeigler) 5. Re: protection on the street (Craig Zeigler) 6. ITF sale (Ray) 7. Re: protection on the street (Jay O'Connor) 8. Re: protection on the street (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The sprawl Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:45:04 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net very true about being able to defend the takedown but still have the ability to fight on the ground if your attempts are not successful....i was at the king of the cage MMA event last friday ( really great experience seeing that stuff live! ) here in cleveland, and seeing it firsthand i can attest that you better be able to have some kind of ground skills, because the longer the fight goes on, the less likely you will be able to stop the takedown. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] The sprawl> technique it offers. I only cross train in Jujitsu because I believe in > reality it is important to understand the ground fighting aspects of war. > > > You are right that if you can learn to sprawl and use good under hooks you can > take a grappler out of his element and force him to strike with you. The > problem is if you are not successful you must be ready to beat him while in > his element. This is where many strikers have a false since of reality. They > believe they can stop the shoot. In reality they may, but then again they may > not. The first several UFC tournaments were won by grapplers. Now many > strikers win because they have learned to defend the takedown. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 15:00:57 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: KO-Online Subject: [The_Dojang] protection on the street Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does rank and fitness prepare you for a fight on the street? TKD comes in many flavors as with all martial arts. As Jay wisely said find an instructor who teaches the art as self-defense not means to a trophy. Sport TKD will do little for real fight preparation. I am fortunate enough to train under a Grand Master who believes that the more we bleed in class the less we will bleed on the street. We are trained & tested in both TaeKwonDo & HapKiDo. Aside from the times we spar using Olympic style rules we wear plexi-faced head gear along with our hogu & gloves so we can incorporate punches elbows etc. to the face along with kicks to the legs & knees. I have added this sparring style to my yearly Fargo Open tournament to make our local Okinawan/Japanese schools more welcome. While fighting in the gym we also set up the large kicking shields randomly on the floor as obstacles. If you knock one over while fighting you need to do 50 push-ups. It really ads a level of environmental awareness and strategy to the activity. For further acclimation to an actual fight the advanced students will practice without the head gear. On Fridays we practice ground fighting to round-out the experience. Does it cover every contingency? No, but along with multiple-opponent practices and weapon-defense I think we train the students for most possibilities. Jim www.KO-Online.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:14:25 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] What WILL protect you from muggers! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To those that ask this question, I have my own experiences to reckon with. ANY martial art, if taught well and if you have skill and fighting spirit will work to protect you. Some students at green belt already have this and others at third dan don't. Training in tkd makes you much better than you would be without training. I found, now its just my experience...that kyokushin karate is the best training. That is, if you survive it! It was full contact, no body armor and absolutely brutal. If you do this, join a school with a large membership so that you are not mismatched. My full respect for grappling, ju jitsu, judo etc etc. It's all good. In your lifetime I would recommend cross training across at least three arts, weight and strength training, meditation and PRAYER! Most of all, carry yourself with strength and avoid trouble. along the way..enjoy the training. SR --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:20:33 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] men rob six in tae kwon do class Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: >I guess this school needed that 11 year old mentioned yesterday. :) > >Ray >================================================================ > >Thu, Mar. 03, 2005 >TheState.com >South Carolina > >Armed men rob six in tae kwon do class > >Richland County deputies are looking for three men who robbed a tae kwon do class. > >About 8 pm, the robbers entered the World Tae Kwon Do Center, 7224 Middle St., and pulled out handguns, Sgt. Mack McLendon said. The men took jewelry, cell phones and other personal belongings from six people at the center, he said. The three also took an unknown amount of cash from the business, he said. > >The men stole two vehicles and fled, McLendon said. > >One of the cars was described as a tan 2001 Chevrolet Cavalier with S.C. license tags 636 NHN. The other car was a silver 2000 Lincoln Continental with S.C. license tags 622 HFC. > >Anyone with information is asked to call the Richland County Sheriff's Department at (803) 576-3000 or Crime Stoppers at (888) 559-TIPS. > >J.R. Gonzales >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > My first TKD instructor taught me something that makes a great deal of sense now that I'm older (and still alive somehow). Let them take whatever they want. Material things can be replaced, life cannot. Also, firearms are very difficult to defend against. They aren't impossible at close range, but very very difficult. Somehow I think the students there did the right thing just letting the robbers take what they wanted. They lived through the whole thing which is the most important. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:26:13 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] protection on the street Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net KO-Online wrote: > Does rank and fitness prepare you for a fight on the street? TKD > comes in many flavors as with all martial arts. As Jay wisely said > find an instructor who teaches the art as self-defense not means to a > trophy. Sport TKD will do little for real fight preparation. I am > fortunate enough to train under a Grand Master who believes that the > more we bleed in class the less we will bleed on the street. We are > trained & tested in both TaeKwonDo & HapKiDo. Aside from the times we > spar using Olympic style rules we wear plexi-faced head gear along > with our hogu & gloves so we can incorporate punches elbows etc. to > the face along with kicks to the legs & knees. I have added this > sparring style to my yearly Fargo Open tournament to make our local > Okinawan/Japanese schools more welcome. While fighting in the gym we > also set up the large kicking shields randomly on the floor as > obstacles. If you knock one over while fighting you need to do 50 > push-ups. It really ads a level of environmental awareness and > strategy to the activity. For further acclimation to an actual fight > the advanced students will practice without the head gear. On Fridays > we practice ground fighting to round-out the experience. Does it > cover every contingency? No, but along with multiple-opponent > practices and weapon-defense I think we train the students for most > possibilities. > Jim > www.KO-Online.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > Jim, Your Grand Master is correct. I wish more schools taught classes with that in mind. As far as sparing, I am used to fighting with full contact, although keeping kicks above the belt is very important. I understand why some might teach to target the lower body since its always a great target. If you take out the trunk, the tree falls. Unfortunately accidents happen on the mat, and taking a full force kick to the side of the knee is not a pleasant experience (speaking from personal experience). Finally, the multiple opponent sparring is a great deal of fun, but should IMHO be limited to only the more advanced students. -Craig --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:44:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF sale Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... We, at Com-Do Corp., have reduced the prices in our Pro-Shop by 20% until April 11, 2005 on any of our award-winning training tools. This is to Celebrate Taekwon-Do's 50th Anniversary. Please visit the pro-shop at www.itf-information.com. And see the sales prices for yourself. This is a limited time offer. https://ssl118.alentus.com/comdo/catalogue.aspx Congratulations on 50 Years of Taekwon-Do! Taekwon! --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:47:22 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] protection on the street Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig Zeigler wrote: > KO-Online wrote: > >> Does rank and fitness prepare you for a fight on the street? TKD >> comes in many flavors as with all martial arts. As Jay wisely said >> find an instructor who teaches the art as self-defense not means to a >> trophy. Sport TKD will do little for real fight preparation. I am >> fortunate enough to train under a Grand Master who believes that the >> more we bleed in class the less we will bleed on the street. We are >> trained & tested in both TaeKwonDo & HapKiDo. Aside from the times we >> spar using Olympic style rules we wear plexi-faced head gear along >> with our hogu & gloves so we can incorporate punches elbows etc. to >> the face along with kicks to the legs & knees. I have added this >> sparring style to my yearly Fargo Open tournament to make our local >> Okinawan/Japanese schools more welcome. While fighting in the gym we >> also set up the large kicking shields randomly on the floor as >> obstacles. If you knock one over while fighting you need to do 50 >> push-ups. It really ads a level of environmental awareness and >> strategy to the activity. For further acclimation to an actual fight >> the advanced students will practice without the head gear. On Fridays >> we practice ground fighting to round-out the experience. Does it >> cover every contingency? No, but along with multiple-opponent >> practices and weapon-defense I think we train the students for most >> possibilities. >> Actually, I was talking to my Sabomnim today about the very issue of the difference betwen sparring and fighting. Our school emphasizes self--defense/fighting over sparring because, currently, the rules of sparring encourage tactics and motion that do not make sense in fighting I sent him the following email: -- Bear with my insanity for a moment. When I was in the Air Force, my dad, also in the Air Force said "All that 'peace is our profession' is just for the civilians; our job is to break stuff and kill people". Beyond the political issues of when and how to use force, that really *is* the mission of the military. (Elected civilian leaders decide why and when, military leaders and personnel...um..just do) Take it as a given that Tae Kwon Do is a Martial Art. It's designed to inflict damage. Hopefully, we would only inflict damage as a last resort when the cost of not inflicting damage is too high. All martial arts, as well as all sports, have ways of testing themselves to test the progrss and effectiveness of their training. I think the idea of 'sparring' has merit, the two main forms of sparring in TKD though, olympic sparring and point sparring, however, have rules for scoring that encourage strategies and motions that really do not translate well to true unarmed combat. -- Point-sparring has the truth that it's about making the first scoring move; but it ends up encourage things like bops on the head. In a fight, I guess you do want to score first, but if that's to be the end then it has to be a debilitating blow, or the fghts going to last. Olympic-sparring recognizes the constant motion of a real fight, but the scoring and match setup encourages dancing and feints and sacrificial attacks (taking a hit to score a hit or more) that don't make sense in a real fight. --- If we are starting from a basis of practicing self-defense in the air, like we do, and including self-defense as more-attack oriented strikes, like we did today and often do. The first level of realism is introducing a live opponent. We do that in some motions, but not in a lot. The second level of realism to increase the intensity. This can be done by increasing the speed of the strikes and the strength of the strikes. (To take it up to full speed/strength, you probably need to put on protective gear This seems to be done naturally anyway when we practice as the level of intensity is dictated somewhat by the two participants The third level of realism is to increase the dynamics. This can be done by allowing either the attacker, or the defender, or both, to vary their attacksl low punch, high punhc, choke, kick, whatever, on the attack, defender can chose method of defense. If the attacker is using a prescribed attack, the defender can know some options and has to react and execute. The attack is free to be dynamic in the attack, the the defender really has to defend himselve with quick reactions and strong execution. Note: dynamics and intensity are independent. You can have dynamics but agree to go easy; you can have intensity but use preset moves, or you can go wild and do both. At the end; what you have is two people facing each other, one about to attack, one about to defend..and a second or two later, it's done. Now add some incentive Turn it into a competition -------------------------- Rules: 1) Two opponents face each other; one is designated 'attacker' one is 'defender'. 2) Attacker initiates an attack, defender defends. 3) The 'round' is over when one person goes down to the ground. 4) Point given to the one still standing 5) Attacker and defender switch roles and do it again 6) Illegeal moves: kicks to the knees strikes behind the elbow hands to the face strikes to the throat 7) Legal moves: Clinches, grabs, traps and takedowns leg sweeps kicks to thigh knuckle punches, palm heel strikes, knife hand strikes This would encourage more of the full range of TKD moves and options. Would encourage a more self-defense/combat style of attack and defense. No tapping the hogu; you score when the other guys butt goes down. Notes: An alternative rule could be to only allow scoring on defense, to encourage a self-defense emphasis. Like tennis or volleyball, you can only score when you serve. Here, you can score when you defend, you can only prevent an opponent score when you attack. The list of legal and illegal moves is just some thoughts in trying to allow the maximum range of techniques with safety. Someone more versed in fighting and sparring than I could probably make a much better list. Wanna make it really exciting? The attacker can, at their discretion, use a fake kife (or some other weapon) that will mark the opponent in some way. Thing is, if the defender successfully defends against a weapon, they get two points. (one possibilty is that if the attacker scores with a weapon, if you are allowing attackers to score then it's two points, if not, the the defender loses a point) You could expand that thought and allow the attacker to open with any sort of attack and if the scorers deem it to be something outside the realm of TKD, like a BJJ grab or shoot in or a choke, then you do the same rewards of a successful attack costs the defender more but a successful defense rewards the defender more. Anyway, the point is to allow for a 'sparring' style that goes from "TKD vs TKD" to "TKD defense against...whataver" -------------------------- The whole point is that the idea of sparring in training to use techniques against a dynamic opponent is a good idea I think in itself. The current rules for most sparring however, encourages strategy and attack styles that are not very similar to the heart of the idea of training for self-defense/counter attack. I think if you look at what a fight is "someone attacks, someone defends, some stuff happens very fast and very quick, and it's over 'cause someone's on the ground", you can develop a dynamic and intense training approach based on getting as close to that as possible, safely. Nothing I think will ever really go anywhere, but maybe some thoughts for directions in our training --------------------------------- Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] protection on the street To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:48:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Unfortunately accidents happen on the mat, and taking a full force kick > to the side of the knee is not a pleasant experience (speaking from > personal experience). Finally, the multiple opponent sparring is a great > deal of fun, but should IMHO be limited to only the more advanced students. For those interested in self-defense it is best to train kicks to the legs. That is where a kick received on the street is likely to be targetted. If you don't train for them you'll suffer. Even to the knee, if you don't go against them in your training you will not know how to deal with them when the time comes. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest