Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:56:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #99 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Jackson (Randall Sexton) 2. Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts (Tkdsid@aol.com) 3. Arnold (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Lightening Up (J R Hilland) 5. Taekwondo introduces new rules (Ray) 6. Re: Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts (Ray) 7. More Teaching the art... (Brooke Thomas) 8. Re: Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts (Jye nigma) 9. Re: stretching machines? (Jye nigma) 10. Re: stretching machines? (Ray) 11. Re: More Teaching the art... (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 17:52:36 -1000 From: Randall Sexton To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'll miss you guys but I plan to be in Jackson later in the year. I'll try to work out if I can get away from the real food! I'm getting a new job where I get to work less...what a concept! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:56:12 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been involved in martial arts since 1964. In the beginning moo duk kwan, then boxing and now taekwondo and along the way kyokushin karate. I've seen so many debate whether instructors that teach multiple arts do it well. Others are perplexed that you can get a blackbelt in hapkido after one seminar. Here is my take: martial arts is sometimes glorious, sometimes effective but all too often a hodgepodge of poorly integrated hocus pocus with little effect in a street situation. This is so, because it is unscientific, unregulated and clearly not studied from an ergonometric and applied kinesthetic level. For the last time I advocate a central authority where research in a motion laboratory can measure best techniques. In a supervised arena where combat can studied with motion equipment, by panels of experts across multiple arts to study the best combinations of block and strike technique to organize forms that are applicable to combat. If you see a master with high dan in 3 or more fields he is probably a fraud. As I see it, the arts today are a mess created by hacks and scoundrels ripping off people left and right. What's the true art??? There isn't any...its time we invented new arts not based on horseback fighting with sabres but arts dedicated to antiterrorist technique and street application. If you think a black belt in moo duk kwan, taekwando, kumdo etc can save you..I suggest you bend forward 90 degrees, place your head between your legs and kiss your behind good-bye! Now I invite the rebuttal! Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:30:58 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Arnold Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff writes: > actually, this isnt byron....its jeff....but had i known that you were > going > to be there Master Timmerman, i would have sought you out. since you > were > there, perhaps you could tell me where and when the HKD stuff took > place...i > couldnt seem to find it, or i just plain missed it. it was supposed to > be at > area 30 next to the eskrima... Hello Jeff: sorry, I read the post as being sent by Byron whom I met in Norwalk, OH last year. I think that lack of communication led to the poor turnout of some events. I was lucky to have a fair number at my seminar, but the Master right behind me had only ONE student show up. The seminars were held in rooms, and not on the main floor. Thanks for your interest. We will do a better job of communication next year (I hope). Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:48:52 -0600 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Lightening Up Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Grimestad: Sorry if any of my posts were offensive in any form or fashion. They were not intended to be; in fact, just the opposite is true. I have previously mentioned, on many occasions, that in my first dojang I taught taekwondo and hapkido for many years. As far as the fellow in Moorhead, that was a true story. As I recently said, I have seen arts taught as a complete form of self-defense by many folks. That is what I am talking about. Actually, you are one of the ones I was referring to as a 'complete method instructor’; I have a lot of respect for your taekwondo skills as a practitioner and a teacher. Your dojang is even listed in on my links page. It took you a long time in taekwondo to gain that level of competency. The other one I was referring to is my old friend Master Hodder, an 8th dan in taekwondo who also holds dan rank in hapkido. There are many others. But you two were the first ones that came to mind when I first wrote that. As far as the modern term 'grandmaster', I do remember when it was first being used by the Americans and the Korean's at the time were not sure what to make of it. Many of the current 8th/9th dan are still not comfortable with the term. I have heard so many translations, I do not know what it is supposed to be in Hangul. I have also heard 5th/6th/7th dan use the term when referring to themselves. It has been discussed here on the DD many times. But any way, we spent a lot of time following my last teacher after class in the Houston Korean community, and I was simply quoting what was often said to me as advice. These just happen to be comments that stuck in my brain after all these years. I also heard the older gentlemen in the Korean community often say, 'never accept a 4th dan in a rank higher than you chosen art', when arguing with the younger Korean gentlemen. I still often here that comment on occasion from my seniors. I am just discussing the common results and current observations. But, as you pointed out there are always exceptions to every rule. Look at Dr. Kimm He Young, 9th dan hapkido (1988), 9^th dan yudo (2004), 8th dan kuksoolwon (1984), and 5th dan taekwondo (1975). I also met Darrell Craig many years ago at a kendo demonstration in Houston, he is well known in my home city. Time to run to the airport. Enjoy! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:46:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo introduces new rules Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo Introduces New Rules The Korea Times By Kim Hyun-cheol Staff Reporter 03-11-2005 18:25 Several new rules will be introduced in taekwondo competitions, a couple of which will take effect at the upcoming World Championships next month in Madrid, the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) announced on Friday. The sport's world governing body approved a series of new policies in an executive council meeting at IOC headquarters in Lausanne, Switzerland, as part of an ongoing reform campaign. At the World Championships, competitors will have three two-minute rounds, shortened from the current three minutes. An extra 'sudden death' round, in which the first fighter to score a point wins the match, will be used in the case of a draw in regulation, unlike the current system of using a judges' decision. More changes will be applied from next year, the WTF added. The new policies include a reduction of the width of the competition area, from the current 12-meters square to 10 meters, and the introduction of scores for fist attacks. The number of judges will also be increased from three to four. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:06:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >street situation. This is so, because it is unscientific, unregulated and >clearly not studied from an ergonometric and applied kinesthetic level. For the >last time I advocate a central authority where research in a motion laboratory >can measure best techniques. In a supervised arena where combat can studied >with motion equipment, by panels of experts across multiple arts to study the >best combinations of block and strike technique to organize forms that are >applicable to combat. I might agree, but of course it will never happen. Not -one- central authority. imho Why? Sometimes martial arts isn't about combat, it is about sport. Sometimes is it about standup grappling... sometimes ground and pound. Sometimes about knife and stick... sometimes about unarmed. Just too many variations to ever come to agreement on what the best combos are or what the best techniques are. Just too many variations. We can't even agree that the TKD of Korea, Kukki-Taekwondo is -the- TKD. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:02:25 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] More Teaching the art... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I guess what I am trying to understand is what is traditional? It appears that many MA are really about 50 years old...and not thousands of years of closely guarded secrets handed from one monk to another. And the art we know today, may look a little different in another 50 years? If teaching exactly what was taught to your by your teacher without adding anything or subtracting anything, is traditional, OK. But under this rigid view of teaching exactly what was taught to you, we wouldn't have had the evolution of a Bruce Lee, Gm JI, Ed Parker, Kano, ect. Yes, these guys changed the name of their art (and Lee even later wanted no name for his "art"). And money pouring in tends to smooth things over nicely. I think my whole point here is that when I read that teaching the traditional art and its strict adherence to passing it on untouched, it reminds me a little of formal religions. Western religions are general non-inclusive and protectionist (we are right and you are wrong). Eastern religions generally are inclusive and often these practioners accept more than one truth (we are right but you may be right too). I think it's human nature to protect what we know. I am aware of 1st Dans b&stardizing the original arts and turning them into a joke. I agree this is the danger and probably the chances the art will suffer more than be strengthened is a credible reality. However, the ability to cross-train, add to your toolbox, be accepting of new ideas and how others train, can lead to the types of innovations by free thinkers I have mentioned above. There. I discussed tradition. I brought up religion. I mentioned MA icons. I think I only left out national politics to really start the bonfire :-) Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:47:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching multiple arts, mixed arts and artless arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol...wow. My comments below: so many debate whether instructors that teach multiple arts do it well. Well here's my take on it.... If people don't believe that a teacher with multiple dans in various arts could be proficient in all of them, then I would what those same people think of doctors? I say this because think of doctors and the body of knowledge covering the whole body they possess because of their studies. Now a doctor can treat many problems ranging from external to internal from the head to the toes, right? Yet we never seem to second guess their abilities even though they are specialists in one area. Now think of a martial artist who only trains in one art nothing more nothing less. Compare him to a specialist like a brain surgeon. Sure they will be quite good at what they do, but they will also be lacking. in other areas. So all this to say both groups have their place, and just because one studies many things doesn't mean they aren't good at all of them. Here is my take: martial arts is sometimes glorious, sometimes effective but all too often a hodgepodge of poorly integrated hocus pocus with little effect in a street situation. This is so, because it is unscientific, unregulated and clearly not studied from an ergonometric and applied kinesthetic level. I'd have to disagree here. Yes there are some arts out there who preach/teach this crystals and granola crap. But there are some that use scientific principles (for their day). For instance, bone breaking, this is definitely not crystals and granola. One must know the proper angles of attack, correct amount of force to use on which bone, etc etc. also on the flip side of that, bone setting is a skill that was based on scientific principles (of an earlier time). As a matter of fact there have been a number of studies pertaining to the martial arts ranging from chi concept to explaining why certain things work using physics, anatomy, etc. The best way to explain it is the ancients knew how to do these things and we today are finding ways to explain them in our native tongue. One need not have a study to show/know that sticking a finger in another's eye will cause major damage. Also, Martial arts do provide major effect in street situations ....PROVIDED that the individual can impliment what they have learned. Even the WTF guys have the ability to protect themselves in the streets...they just have to make what they have learned work for them. For the last time I advocate a central authority where research in a motion laboratory can measure best techniques. I think that study would last until the end of the world, simply because there is no "best way" or best techniques simply because everyone is different. I'm 5'9 195lbs, if a guy 6'5 220 comes rushing at me, my best technique to take him out may be different then someone who is 5'1 155, or 6'3 145lbs...lol. In a supervised arena where combat can studied with motion equipment, by panels of experts across multiple arts to study the best combinations of block and strike technique to organize forms that are applicable to combat. Reading this reminded me of when I saw Evander Holyfield using this "new" training based on scientific exercising equipment, theories, etc. They showed him on this futuristic looking equipment, and his a$$ still got knock the .... out by someone who trained the "old fashioned way" (running outside, crunches on a floor, etc).....lol. As I see it, the arts today are a mess created by hacks and scoundrels ripping off people left and right. I agree. Too many McDojos passing people just because they don't want to lose money. I beleive in schools that actually follow what they refer to themselves as....SCHOOLS who WONT allow students to pass if they don't know the material or perform up to a certain standard. the true art??? There isn't any...its time we invented new arts not based on horseback fighting with sabres but arts dedicated to antiterrorist technique and street application. If you think a black belt in moo duk kwan, taekwando, kumdo etc can save you..I suggest you bend forward 90 degrees, place your head between your legs and kiss your behind good-bye! Now I invite the rebuttal! The true art is in recognizing the beauty in the motions. the art is in preserving those things that are contained in the martial art which was practiced long ago The true art is a vision and the the martial artist is the one who holds and carries out the vision. Sure we can develop new systems based on what's going on now, and many have tony blaurer, stephen k hayes, etc all have developed systems based on combat. In all fairness, you could be a master of any combat system and still lose your life. As far as antiterrorist technique...what good is that going to do you when most terrorist cells used weapons you can't dodge i.e., bullets, bombs, etc. Besides if you need to learn that...the military is waiting. Also, if one wants to know what is useful in the streets, one has to go and hit the streets and experience what is going on there. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:52:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stretching machines? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I used to use a stretch machine where you pull the center pole and the two poles (with your legs on it spread) it was cool but made my hip joints pop sometimes. So now I simply use my banister to stretch. Jye llner wrote: Just curious, What do you guys think of stretching machines? Does anybody use one? Can this be a good idea? Jeremy --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] stretching machines? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:00:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I used to use a stretch machine where you pull the center pole and the two > poles (with your legs on it spread) it was cool but made my hip joints pop > sometimes. So now I simply use my banister to stretch. I bought one probably 25 or so years ago. Stretching w/a partner is better, and cheaper. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] More Teaching the art... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:33:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I guess what I am trying to understand is what is > traditional? It appears that many MA are really about > 50 years old...and not thousands of years of closely > guarded secrets handed from one monk to another. And > the art we know today, may look a little different in > another 50 years? Personally I agree. Probably the only truly ancient martial art still with us is wrestling. The rest are mostly less than 200 years old. And the only Korean arts still w/us today older than about 65 years are ssireum wrestling and taekkyun. Bottom line... traditional is pretty much whatever you think it is. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest