Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:05:11 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #110 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: martial arts true mission (Ray) 2. Masters (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Re: martial arts true mission (Dante) 4. Re: martial arts true mission (Dave) 5. Texas ChainSaw Massacre and the Art of Hapkido (Ken McDonough) 6. Teaching hapkido to females? (Timmy Sr. Kearney) 7. Re: effectiveness (Jye nigma) 8. Re: Training Women's In Hapkido (jakskru) 9. RE: Effective styles/UFC (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] martial arts true mission To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:16:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > While it is certainly central to any martial art to employ effective, even > lethal strikes, I would argue that it is more important to develop the moral > character of the student to help find non-violent means to resolve conflict. > In this respect, UFC is the anthithesis of all that martial arts are trying to > accomplish. > > Martial arts are closest to their mission when teaching persons who are slight > in stature and lack confidence, making them targets for those who would impose > their will. As an instructor, I am more gratified by watching the > developement of an painfully shy adolescent with no athletic ability into a > self confident, strong young adult headed off to college alone then a pompous, > atheletic, physically strong but morally corrupt, bully who can easily defeat > any opponent. Here is a question... When did the purpose of Korean martial arts change from martial imporvement to moral improvement? Seriously, I submit that if one goes back to the Korean Karate of the 1940s and 50s and perhaps even the 60s one sees little of this. Yet somewhere along the line the focus on improving the person instead of improving just the person's fighting ability became pre-eminent. Perhaps a change for the better, but a change. In Japan it was probably in Kano's Judo and Funakoshi's Karate-do, taught to the masses and the children to improve their physical and mental health. But I don't see this same focus very early on in the Korean Karate or Hapkido dojangs. True, you see it in some Kwan names, e.g. the Institute for Martial Virtue (Moo Duk Kwan), but perhaps less so in what was actually taught in the dojang classes. Thoughts? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:35:35 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain writes: > > First, please call me Alain. I don't claim to be a master, just > someone who has trained a bit since 1982 and likes to pass on what I > have learned by teaching, writing and videos. Some people are called Masters because they spent time in years, some have received a certificate that says so, and some are Masters because they are viewed that way by their peers. I cannot think of Alain as anything less than a Master, because he personifies the very essence of what makes a Master... humility AND skill. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:51:41 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Dante To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] martial arts true mission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Excellent question. I would suggest, from a somewhat cynical point of view, that one of the reasons was financial. As the early Korean masters looked for ways to propagate the art, and include children, more women and those not interested or ready to become bruised or accepting of pain into the mix, the focus had to change. As Ray said, there were already examples in the Japanese arts of a focus on character development, e.g. judo, karate-do, or moral or religious overtones, e.g. aikido, shorinji kempo. The idea went from "many are called and few are chosen" to "many are called and all can be chosen" I think TKD is a prime example of this, with its "everyone is a winner" concept. This concept feeds the current McDonald's mentality of a large percentage of the American population. As I have said before, TKD has become something to do like getting a new merit badge, another trophy for the 10 year old. People rise to the level of expectation, and sadly, enough is not usually expected. Now, many schools, I like to believe mine included, can and do perform a good job of providing moral training, character development AND real defensive training. However, I think the number is relatively small. Ok, enough soap box. Back to the question. When I began martial arts 31 years ago, character development was a by-product of learning to use your body as a weapon. Respect for this ability, insight into one's self, and respect for others came, but often at the hands of seniors in the dojang when one's ego got loose. Currently, it seems to have been reversed such that the idea of character development is pereminent, and self defense ability is secondary. Just my thoughts...Peace Dante -----Original Message----- From: Ray Sent: Mar 18, 2005 10:16 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] martial arts true mission Here is a question... When did the purpose of Korean martial arts change from martial imporvement to moral improvement? Seriously, I submit that if one goes back to the Korean Karate of the 1940s and 50s and perhaps even the 60s one sees little of this. Yet somewhere along the line the focus on improving the person instead of improving just the person's fighting ability became pre-eminent. Perhaps a change for the better, but a change. In Japan it was probably in Kano's Judo and Funakoshi's Karate-do, taught to the masses and the children to improve their physical and mental health. But I don't see this same focus very early on in the Korean Karate or Hapkido dojangs. True, you see it in some Kwan names, e.g. the Institute for Martial Virtue (Moo Duk Kwan), but perhaps less so in what was actually taught in the dojang classes. Thoughts? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Dante J. James, Esq. Project Director AA-VIP 303-830-1105 Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional VOTE - Your future depends on it! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:08:33 -0600 From: Dave To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] martial arts true mission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Follow-up question: Why do the Korean Martial arts need to be limited to only one purpose?  Why can't you have Martial and Moral improvement wrapped up in the same box?  Somehow, I feel, the moral improvement was there all along, maybe not as touted as a man's striking ability and such, but given how the orientals have always viewed honor, it must have played a significant role.  Dave Ray wrote: While it is certainly central to any martial art to employ effective, even lethal strikes, I would argue that it is more important to develop the moral character of the student to help find non-violent means to resolve conflict. In this respect, UFC is the anthithesis of all that martial arts are trying to accomplish. Martial arts are closest to their mission when teaching persons who are slight in stature and lack confidence, making them targets for those who would impose their will. As an instructor, I am more gratified by watching the developement of an painfully shy adolescent with no athletic ability into a self confident, strong young adult headed off to college alone then a pompous, atheletic, physically strong but morally corrupt, bully who can easily defeat any opponent. Here is a question... When did the purpose of Korean martial arts change from martial imporvement to moral improvement? Seriously, I submit that if one goes back to the Korean Karate of the 1940s and 50s and perhaps even the 60s one sees little of this. Yet somewhere along the line the focus on improving the person instead of improving just the person's fighting ability became pre-eminent. Perhaps a change for the better, but a change. In Japan it was probably in Kano's Judo and Funakoshi's Karate-do, taught to the masses and the children to improve their physical and mental health. But I don't see this same focus very early on in the Korean Karate or Hapkido dojangs. True, you see it in some Kwan names, e.g. the Institute for Martial Virtue (Moo Duk Kwan), but perhaps less so in what was actually taught in the dojang classes. Thoughts? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:23:32 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Texas ChainSaw Massacre and the Art of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While on the Riverwalk, San Antonio, in this balmy 75 degree heat, something occurred to me regardin you Hapkido guys. Scenario: Your car conks out while on the county road in Bastrop, Texas. You stop at this farm with a lot of chicken feathers and meat hooks lying around. You aimlessly walk into this old farmhouse and ask for Farmer Jones. Suddenly a guy with a leather face mask (made out of human flesh or cow hide) comes gunning for ya with a chain saw ! I mean out of nowwhere, with the chainsaw lookin to chop off some of your limbs ... I mean you got no time for etiquette, bowing to the Korean flag, or practicin your forms. Whadda u do ? Lemme know cause my Corona is gettin low. Bye Bye K. (Tex) McDee --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Timmy Sr. Kearney" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:15:01 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching hapkido to females? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was reading where one instructor had problems with the females not wanting to do breakfalls,well,I too had the same problem,and the males complained,so I told them that it is part of the program,and I started them off very slowly.I would get them on their knees to start their front breakfalls,and work up from there.When it came to the side breakfalls,I would do a technique on them ,and they would do their fall slowly ,and you work from there.I think that when you start them off as easy as possible,then very gradually increase the speed,the females will surprise themselves with the fact that they aren't hurt,then when they find a partner they can trust,they can only improve. Master Tim Kearney --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:17:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] effectiveness To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well it doesn't have to be a particular art. it could simply be that they have learned to use to the best of their abilites what they have. For instance, I have a very modest music studio setup. I've met some producers that have stuff I dream of having, yet my music sounds like I have what they have. They always seem to ask me what I make my music on and when I tell them they don't believe it. The same is true with my graphic design applications. I used software that is not "industry standard" yet when I show my work to industry professionals, they assume that I used photoshop (the industry standard) and when I tell them I used pain shop pro, they are amazed. What my examples illustrate is the fact that I took what I had and learned to use every bit of it so much that I have become extremely proficient at using it to accomplish any task I set out to do. Now let's apply this to the martial arts. Let's say I study TKD and I go up against a grappler. What if the grappler doesn't work his skills as good as I can work mine...there is a very very good chance that I can beat him. Learning a martial art is like your teaching giving you a canvas with a incomplete painting on it....the painting can only be completed by the student, so it's how you interpret the art and how you can make it yours. Making it yours is the key...doesn't matter the style. *Also you don't see those things you mentioned don't make the art that they belong to. For instance, a jump spinning back kick doesn't make TKD TKD, so not doing it doesn't hinder TKD the system it means the individual isn't comfortable doing it or the right time to launch it hasn't arrived yet. I personally would NOT do any spinning techniques on something built like Ken Shamrock! lol. Jye Gladewater SooBahkDo wrote: Jye I read: "...The UFC does not show what works and what doesn't..." Jye I might agree with your logic that the individuals fighting in the UFC are just skilled at a particular art, BUT the problem is there have been literally 100's of UFC fights with people of all style's, backgrounds, and and training methods. The overwhelming results is ground submission (Jujitsu primarily) and and solid base for striking are effective. You see no jump back spinning kicks, no flipping 3 or 4 round house kicks to the head for a point, no low kung fu stances. Don't misunderstand me. I think those things are OK, but if we are understand what works and what don't we must determine what techniques are artistic and which techniques are martial. JC --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Training Women's In Hapkido Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:41:54 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net may i humbly suggest that you dont insult either your male OR your future and/or present female students by even considering taking it easy on them? i can only speak from the experiences in my class and if our female students thought that they were not treated as equals, then they will either begin going extra hard on you, or in an extreme case they will quit and you will be right back where you started... ----- Original Message ----- From: "United HapKiDo Academy" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:18 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Training Women's In Hapkido > Hello everyone, > Here is a good question: What is the best method to teach a woman Hapkido? --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Effective styles/UFC Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:58:00 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net has anybody heard the phrase "styles make fights"? I know that everyone has heard its not the size of the dog in the fight but size of the fight in the dog" the UFC proves that there some big dogs with big fight! I'm not sure if you can compare self defence tec to UFC. some people who go to the dojang are not natural fighters. or more accurately not naturally aggressive. my guess is however that the people who compete at a high standard are probably more aggressive and use their chosen MA to channel that aggression. I would like to think that most of us on the digest are men and women of honour. for that reason there are few reasons that we would have to use our arts outside of a controlled environment. to defend ourselves and our loved ones. those are the only two that I can think of that apply to me. which makes me think of a story I read in the paper last year of a swan that had killed TWO DOGS. swans so passive and gentile until it felt that his mate and his young were being threatened. -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: 17 March 2005 13:59 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Effective styles/UFC In my opinion, the UFC does not show what works and what doesn't. Instead it shows who can work their knowledge and skills better. Suppose I'm a boxer and I spar with boxers, grapplers, kickers, etc and become proficient at defeating my sparring partners, then that is because I have learned to use my knowledge of what their style entails, and my skills to overcome their weapons of a$$ destruction. So when I square off with someone who is proficient in using their skills, it now becomes a question of who can do it better, or who makes the first mistake....kind of like shooting pool. Two excellent competitors square off and shoot pool, their skills are not in question it soon becomes a question of who makes the first mistake and if the other can capitalize on the error. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest