Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:20:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #111 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: women's hapkido (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 2. RE: Training Women In Hapkido (Kip McCormick) 3. RE:Texas ChainSaw Massacre (tim walker) 4. hapkido vs chainsaw (Don Kirsch) 5. effectiveness. (Eric Walker) 6. true mission of martial arts (Tkdsid@aol.com) 7. RE: Mr. Metzner's post (Eric Walker) 8. (no subject) (Jeff !) 9. Chainsaw scenario... (Eric Walker) 10. knife defense (Ray) 11. Happy B-day :( (Ray) 12. Texas ChainSaw Massacre and the Art of Hapkido (Randall Sexton) 13. re. martial arts' true mission (Bob Banham) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:16:25 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: women's hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net joe wrote: "Should I try to make my program easier for them by not requiring falling?" my reply: tell 'em to suck it up, joe. :) do you really want to simplify your curriculum for women? do the women really want to work less, earn less, be less skillful than the other students? i would doubt it sincerely, sir. they'll learn to fall. you dont have to make it as bad as the old sink or swim philosophy and throw them into the deep end. start 'em out slow, start low, but they'll learn how to fall. adults tend to forget how much fun tumbling, falling and rolling was when we were kids. fear hops in and we tense up, making it that much worse. some folks (men and women) will be fearful initially, but if approached with respect for that fear/concern, they'll eventually learn the skills. nakbup is an extremely important part of it all. if they dont learn to fall, theyre going to get hurt. simplifying, or dumbing down, a program for a group of individuals seems like it could cause more harm than good: -resentment from those in simplified program ("you dont think i'm capable?"...and then they might start to believe it, too, which is even worse) -resentment from current students watching others obtain rank for doing less -women running around with false sense of security -injury from not having learned to fall correctly i see that you are a gentleman, joe, and that the idea of a woman getting thrown around on the mat is hard for you to see. yet, having it (getting thrown around) happen IRL because she didnt learn all the good stuff would be much worse. you should see the women in our class. many of whom rarely turn down the opportunity for "smackdown" with the guys. the guys in our class dont take it easy on the women. if theyve got the upper hand, they dont injure and know self control, teaching instead of injuring. and then, of course, there's times when the women put some hurt on the guys who wish their mommies were there ;). i would recommend not underestimating the women-folk, sir. take care, melinda :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Training Women In Hapkido Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Joe- Keep in mind I've only been teaching hapkido a few years, but I've been training soldiers for more than two decades and I've found there's a parallel. I treat my female students the same as male students. I show no favoratism or "altering" of training, unless they're pregnant (yep, I've got a pregnant student now -- ki strikes to the belly at this time is not a recommended technique). Even a pregnant student makes adjustments around that condition until she can't play on the mat. My wife, who is also a hapkido blackbelt, would truly kick my butt if I disrespected her by treating her differently. Two of the great instructors I train under -- Bob Ingersoll, JR West -- have reinforced the idea of "equal treatment on the mat." I use Dianne Ingersoll and Renee West as examples of hapkidoin who would kick a** if they were treated differently because of the "chick factor," as some of my female students have called it. Several on this list have been on the receiving end of their techniques ("better living through motrin -- OUCH!) and they didn't get to that skill level through different treatment. We all bleed the same. I just got back from the Mississippi throw down and I've seen some women there who could tear me and others apart (and I'm not talking about the barefooted, toothless ones I saw at the Piggly Wiggly in town). Back to the linkage of training soldiers, at West Point we just had several young ladies who happen to be officers throwing down in the war on terror (just returned from Iraq) come talk to the cadets, staff, and faculty about their experiences. One was a military police officer (lieutenant) who graduated from here a couple of years ago, basketball player, athlete, scholar and warrior, and now purple heart recipient. She lost her arm at the shoulder while leading her MP platoon on a two way firing range with some bad muldunes. She's still on active duty and will continue serving her nation, giving great meaning to "duty, honor, country." Standards were never lowered for her, nor would she have accepted that. FWIW. Kip >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:40:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Texas ChainSaw Massacre Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Change the channel...with 200 cable channels, there's gotta be a car race or an explosion on somewhere...oh, and get me another beer while you're up, wouldja? timo "Dolor Temporarius, Gloria Aeterna, Cicatrices Virgines Placent" --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:12:44 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido vs chainsaw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken (Tex ?), No disrespect intended but anyone who calls himself Tex should know ... a) Bastrop is like a big metropolitan area (that's real big city, bigger than Dimebox, TX, for us real Texans) compared to a lot of the places in Texas. (Places I find myself in frequently due to occupational hazards.), b) It wouldn't be a car that breaks down, it would be a pick'em up truck and c) I'd do what any thinking Hapkido player would do .. I'd show him my cold Lone Star (insert your favorite beer here) , we'd sit down together, talk about the chances of rain, cattle prices and eat fried, bar-b-qued and/or raw chicken together. Regards, your friend, Don Kirsch Ken wrote, Scenario: Your car conks out while on the county road in Bastrop, Texas. You stop at this farm with a lot of chicken feathers and meat hooks lying around. You aimlessly walk into this old farmhouse and ask for Farmer Jones. Suddenly a guy with a leather face mask (made out of human flesh or cow hide) comes gunning for ya with a chain saw ! I mean out of nowwhere, with the chainsaw lookin to chop off some of your limbs ... I mean you got no time for etiquette, bowing to the Korean flag, or practicin your forms. Whadda u do ? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:44:59 -0600 From: Eric Walker To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] effectiveness. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. JC wrote: "Jye I read: "...The UFC does not show what works and what doesn't..." Jye I might agree with your logic that the individuals fighting in the UFC are just skilled at a particular art, BUT the problem is there have been literally 100's of UFC fights with people of all style's, backgrounds, and and training methods. The overwhelming results is ground submission (Jujitsu primarily) and and solid base for striking are effective. You see no jump back spinning kicks, no flipping 3 or 4 round house kicks to the head for a point, no low kung fu stances. Don't misunderstand me. I think those things are OK, but if we are understand what works and what don't we must determine what techniques are artistic and which techniques are martial. JC" You also see know scoop kick to the knee or Knife-hand to the trachea. Nothing hard to the spine. Elbows always end up back of arm instead of point of elbow. Technique, for the most part, goes out the window. So who wins? The giant, steroid monster, because on the ground, *usually* the bigger stronger guy wins. As a white/yellow belt I would routinely win vs. two different black belts when we would grapple. Just because they couldn't relax and execute the techniques that they had trained in, and I outwighed one of them by 70 pounds and definitely had size on the other. I didn't have any understanding of how to do it, I just ran them over. I must agree with Jye here as well as Bruce and some of the others in this BJJ vs. Hapkido debate that is being run into the ground. No comparison. Look at the video of the strike to the brachial plexus origin some one just linked to. Damn fine execution of technique. One strike in a dynamic situation, granted the strikee was probably trained in no way at all. But that was serious lack of effort on the stiker's part. Obviously the striker didn't really want to hurt the other guy. But then again nobody seems to want to do that in UFC either. It's against the rules. In hapkido, as I've been taught, there are no rules.Period. Save your butt is the only rule. Except perhaps for the telling of one's self, "Today I die. First though I wil try to kill him." OK two rules. Cheers, Eric --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:48:44 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] true mission of martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oh boy is that a tough one! I suppose since martial arts is traced back by some accounts to early China and the attempt to protect the monks...then UFC is fairly true to tHAT mission. The values we often talk about...the "do"...the budo etc is liberally violated by martial arts today. Of course we need to teach those values. But don't you think is a bit difficult to send that message to kids when they see their adult masters, making up rank, not following the teachers of the grandmasters, acting like cowboys independent of any central structure? The response I've gotten on this issue have been evenly split. Sid --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:51:34 -0600 From: Eric Walker To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Mr. Metzner's post Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Metzner wrote: "Forgive my getting on the soapbox, but I have been following the tone of recent submissions focusing on effective techniques and which martial artist could defeat the others in the ring or on the street and felt compelled to respond. While it is certainly central to any martial art to employ effective, even lethal strikes, I would argue that it is more important to develop the moral character of the student to help find non-violent means to resolve conflict. In this respect, UFC is the anthithesis of all that martial arts are trying to accomplish. Martial arts are closest to their mission when teaching persons who are slight in stature and lack confidence, making them targets for those who would impose their will. As an instructor, I am more gratified by watching the developement of an painfully shy adolescent with no athletic ability into a self confident, strong young adult headed off to college alone then a pompous, atheletic, physically strong but morally corrupt, bully who can easily defeat any opponent. It gives me tremedous satisfaction to have a parent say their child loves TKD and has learned to be more respectful in school and home. When it comes to our interschool tournaments, I emphasize that winning is not important, only preparing and trying to win. Enough of my preaching, but I'm sure there must be others on this list that feel as I do and are slightly disconcerted at the tone of recent postings. Tom Metzner" Thank you for putting into words what I've been struggling with here. I too, have been feeling annoyed by these back and forth "arguements". Of course I mainly have stopped reading them now. It's good to be reminded what the "Do" is all about. Thank you, Eric P.S. I like you on your soapbox. -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jeff !" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:57:15 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i am still not convinced that the Gacie's didnt rig the entire UFC from the conception... i mean, there were some obvious set-ups in my and my brothers opinion (and some of our friends) who are all masters of martial arts (irrelevant of style)... 25+ years of experience per person thank you. anyways, it is my belief that no style is the best, however - many practitioners claim that thier style is ultimate in self-defense/fighting.  what yahoos!!!  ok so, i train all methods - taekwondo for my distance fighting, hapkido for standing CQC (close quarters combat) and judo/chin-na for ground altercations.  i can take out any street fighter anyday (empty hand or weapon) if i am by myself.  that said, if friends or family are around while i am getting mugged, the gunman can have whatever he (or she) wants! p.s. - keep your arts seperated, dont do like bruce lee did and mixed your stuff all together and claim it is something new and original.  show respect for each discipline and hold true guys and girls.  peace and love...!  ciao.  enjoy, i gotta run. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find just what you're after with the new, more precise MSN Search - try it now! --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:56:05 -0600 From: Eric Walker To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chainsaw scenario... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. McD asked: "While on the Riverwalk, San Antonio, in this balmy 75 degree heat, something occurred to me regardin you Hapkido guys. Scenario: Your car conks out while on the county road in Bastrop, Texas. You stop at this farm with a lot of chicken feathers and meat hooks lying around. You aimlessly walk into this old farmhouse and ask for Farmer Jones. Suddenly a guy with a leather face mask (made out of human flesh or cow hide) comes gunning for ya with a chain saw ! I mean out of nowwhere, with the chainsaw lookin to chop off some of your limbs ... I mean you got no time for etiquette, bowing to the Korean flag, or practicin your forms. Whadda u do ? Lemme know cause my Corona is gettin low. Bye Bye K. (Tex) McDee " I raise up with my Walther and let him have all seven. You? Eric -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:42:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] knife defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is good knife defense! http://mfile.akamai.com/10676/wmv/ondemandwm.chumtv.com/2005/mar5/mar0805-copdwight220.asx --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:46:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Happy B-day :( Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fwiw Today is the birthday of the criminal Dr. KIM Un-yong. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:03:02 -1000 From: Randall Sexton To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Texas ChainSaw Massacre and the Art of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First of all, you wouldn't be walking aimlessly... Randy Sexton <<>> --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:49:58 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] re. martial arts' true mission Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wasn't a good deal of Hwarang trainng concerned with improvement of the whole peron? Bob Banham Martial Arts for the 21st Century Bob Banham Director Chilsong Ltd Oak House, High Street, Cawston, Norwich NR10 4AE UK bob@chilsong.com www.chilsong.com tel: mobile: 44 (0)1603 872077 07748066992 Add me to your address book... Want a signature like this? [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Chilsong martial arts 300dpi colour logo.jpg] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest