Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:01:28 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #146 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: rank, title, false art... (Rick Clark) 2. JJ Kim (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Rank (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Dan number 2 and 3 (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Re: Iran and Modern Hapkido (Vic Cushing) 6. Re: hapkido central (Ray) 7. Re: Rank (Ray) 8. Re: JJ Kim (Ray) 9. RE: Rank (Rick Clark) 10. RE: hapkido central (Rick Clark) 11. Senior TSD MDK Dans... (Master Arce) 12. Re: hapkido central (Ray) 13. Re: Rank (Ray) 14. Mistakes (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:49:40 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] rank, title, false art... To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jere, > From: J R Hilland [mailto:hapkido@wah.midco.net] > Rick: VERY well said! Thanks - it's nice to get a compliment on the internet - most times you get flames :-) > Taekwondo times and rags like that are the ones > deciding who is legit and who is not by catering to the paid > advertisement. I have to agree - but to a point. The various magazines do provide a good source for information. I have most of the old black belt magazines from the early 1960's forward - but I did quit buying every magazine every month quite a while ago. Back in the 60's and 70's there was a need for the magazines it helped spread the word of the martial arts and helped those of us in the flyover area of the US informed of what was going on in the world. But today there is a lot of information out there on the internet and that helps a lot. > But now they are adding such silly non-Korean titles as > supreme (what every happened to SBN and KJN?).... After all a > grandmaster is a level of chess player and the other place that grand is > used is from the Klan. Growing up in southeast Texas, the term 'grand' > in front of a name has a very bad connotation for me and I still cringe > when I hear it. Agreed - and "Master" has even more of negative connotation to me - I ALWAYS think of a slave master, and that relationship. I just can not bear to use the term "Master" to anyone. I'll use the Korean, Japanese, Chinese, equitant but "Master" is not in my vocabulary. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:13:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] JJ Kim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Kim would be able to give an accurate account of how the hyungs were practiced. This is True. His Dan number is lower than HC Hwang as well. HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim, however was with Grandmaster Hwang Kee right up to his death. Any changes, or evolutions practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan founder would have mostly been passed to HC Hwang not JJ Kim JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:21:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Danny I agree with you. My point is Master Pak and others do not get there title from a senior Ko Dan Ja. They assume it themselves. I don't mean to sound negative toward Master Pak as a practitioner. He is a very good one. I also respect rank from other styles and organizations. My point is just because you leave an organization and start your own does constitute a promotion. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:45:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan number 2 and 3 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Kim, Young Duk (Dan # 2) and Choi, Hwe Suk (Dan #3) are both still active. I was recently sent a picture from Korea of them both standing with Master Lee, Joo Beom Dan # 5856 which was issued by Hwang Kee in 1961. They were in the central Do-Jang in Seoul. Only Master Lee was in Do-Bahk. JC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:02:44 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Vic Cushing Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Iran and Modern Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recently returned from a trip to train and promote Hapkido in Iran as the first relatively high ranking American martial artist to visit that country since their revolution in 1979. Posted on the IMHF web site is some information and pictures from that trip, more will be added later, links to those pages are below: http://modernhapkido.org/id6.html http://modernhapkido.org/id53.html For those of you inclined to argue and debate whether I should have gone to Iran, before you flame, you might want to read more on the subject.....comments from another board: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9510 Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido central To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I find this interesting, both Korean and Japanese use Chinese > characters. I wonder that he would not have seen the Chinese characters > for Hapkido before this time and recognized that they were one in the > same. There were probably no Chinese books available on Ueshiba's Aikido. ??? After WWII there was a ban by Korea on importing books, etc from Japan. When this ban ended books on Aikido finally reached Korea and Gm Ji didn't like it that he was using a name that the Japanese had already been using for 20 years. So he shortened the name to Kido briefly, but then back to Hapkido since the name was already so well known around the country (Korea). Or so I understand... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... My point is just because you > leave an organization and start your own does constitute a promotion. Well, yes and no. Who promoted Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk and Choi Yong-sul, etc? They started an org and essentially promoted themselves. Sadly every Tom, Dick and Harrietta now think they can form an org or art and say they are a 9th or 10th Dan, but the early founders did essentially just that. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] JJ Kim To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Any changes, or evolutions practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan founder would > have mostly been passed to HC Hwang not JJ Kim Again we find ourselves back to 'what exactly is MDK'? HC Hwang is the best source for Soo Bahk Do. In hindsight, there are a variety of excellent sources for MDK. Since things changed in the MDK over time there will be number of best sources for original/HSD MDK, TSD MDK, TKD MDK, SBD MDK... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:40:31 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > ... My point is just because you > > leave an organization and start your own does constitute a promotion. > > Well, yes and no. > > Who promoted Hwang Kee and Lee Won-kuk and Choi Yong-sul, etc? They > started > an org and essentially promoted themselves. Sadly every Tom, Dick and > Harrietta now think they can form an org or art and say they are a 9th > or 10th Dan, but the early founders did essentially just that. > > Ray Terry You are exactly correct in this. BUT what does differentiate every Tom, Dick, and Harry, is IF and only IF they are able to form a large enough organization or following to give a legitimate name to their art. It's the recognition of your peers that puts the stamp of approval on you or your art. Or I guess enough positive PR in the magazines to make it legitimate. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:49:06 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] hapkido central To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > > I find this interesting, both Korean and Japanese use Chinese > > characters. I wonder that he would not have seen the Chinese characters > > for Hapkido before this time and recognized that they were one in the > > same. > > There were probably no Chinese books available on Ueshiba's Aikido. ??? I would agree with you on this - but it's my understanding that Chinese characters are used for words that are in some way special. Aikido would have had a very specific meaning and my guess is that you would see the Kanji used in Japanese newspapers and books. I suspect the same would have been true for Korean newspapers or written media. > > After WWII there was a ban by Korea on importing books, etc from Japan. > When this ban ended books on Aikido finally reached Korea and Gm Ji didn't > like it that he was using a name that the Japanese had already been using > for 20 years. So he shortened the name to Kido briefly, but then back to > Hapkido since the name was already so well known around the country > (Korea). > > Or so I understand... Again - I would suspect that someone who is knowledgeable in the martial arts would know the major players. Back in those days Ueshiba (Aikido) would have been in the ranks of Kano (Judo), Funakoshi (Karate), Sakabari (Kendo) . . . . these were the top guys. Not to know who they were or what they taught may stretch the imagination (at least mine). Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Senior TSD MDK Dans... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Master Terry...thank you Sir :) Yes, they (Dans# 02 and 03) are still active, and attend many seminars, promotions, etc. Steve __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido central To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Again - I would suspect that someone who is knowledgeable in the martial > arts would know the major players. Back in those days Ueshiba (Aikido) > would have been in the ranks of Kano (Judo), Funakoshi (Karate), > Sakabari (Kendo) . . . . these were the top guys. Not to know who they > were or what they taught may stretch the imagination (at least mine). I'm not following you... Ueshiba didn't start using the name Aikido in Japan until when.?. many sources just say the 1940s. It was probably after Takeda died (1943), perhaps c1945. Ueshiba was probably using the name Aikibudo during the end of the Japanese occupation of Korea. I have an old tape of him teaching Aikibudo from this time period, when he was young and was built like an heavyduty fireplug. He looked nothing at all as we have come to recognize him. >From 1945 until 196X? there was little to no cultural exchange between Japan and Korea. And can you blame the Koreans? As you know, many Korean old timers still hate the Japanese for what they did. No reason to think that Ueshiba, who wasn't a top level player in the 1940s, would be known in Korea. Even if he was, he was probably known as an Aikibudo teacher. When the wall came down between Japan and Korea things began to poor into Korea from Japan. As Gm Ji has stated time and time again, it was at this time that he first saw a book on Ueshiba's art and in that book the name Aikido was used. Aikido, Hapkido, same same. Thus he shortened the name to Kido to be unique, but then he later went back to using Hapkido. I wasn't there, I don't know for sure. But it all seems very plausible to me. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You are exactly correct in this. BUT what does differentiate every Tom, > Dick, and Harry, ... Probably time (as measured in decades and scores) as well as the quality of the master instructors that you develop to carry on the art. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:36:50 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mistakes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris writes: > People have to remember that GM Seo is just a "man" who make good and > bad > decisions just like we do everyday. Although I may not agree with > many of > GM Seo's decisions, but when someone like Rudy (who has many years > under his > belt actually training) stands by him to this day, that means > something and > should be taken into consideration. Hi Chris: That is just about the best way to look at this as I have seen anyone do. Sure, I could please those who argue that GM Seo is partly responsible for Hap Ki Do problems and leave, but I don't jump from org to org unless I absolutely have to. As one can see in Ray's post, there are many who were involved in JPs career. I look at it very simple, and much the way you do Chris. I am happy because I can learn from a good martial artist who does a good job on the mat. We all make mistakes, but few are willing to live by them even when they KNOW it hurts their reputation. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest