Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:32:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #147 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: hapkido central (Rick Clark) 2. Re: hapkido central (Ray) 3. Master Title (Thomas Gordon) 4. hapkido central (J R Hilland) 5. bridge (jakskru) 6. rank, title, art... (J R Hilland) 7. RE: Senior TSD MDK Dans... (fabrice carfantan) 8. hapkido central -and- rank, titles (Ray) 9. Chen Zhong absent from taekwondo worlds (Ray) 10. Re: More on the Ki Hap (I think) (brent b) 11. New summer program for Korean Studies (Ray) 12. Exit lurk mode (Charles Richards) 13. Rank and politics (Charles Richards) 14. RE: Rank (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:51:08 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] hapkido central To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > > Again - I would suspect that someone who is knowledgeable in the martial > > arts would know the major players. Back in those days Ueshiba (Aikido) > > would have been in the ranks of Kano (Judo), Funakoshi (Karate), > > Sakabari (Kendo) . . . . these were the top guys. Not to know who they > > were or what they taught may stretch the imagination (at least mine). > > I'm not following you... > > Ueshiba didn't start using the name Aikido in Japan until when.?. many > sources > just say the 1940s. It was probably after Takeda died (1943), perhaps > c1945. > Ueshiba was probably using the name Aikibudo during the end of the > Japanese > occupation of Korea. I have an old tape of him teaching Aikibudo from > this > time period, when he was young and was built like an heavyduty fireplug. > He > looked nothing at all as we have come to recognize him. > > From 1945 until 196X? there was little to no cultural exchange between > Japan > and Korea. And can you blame the Koreans? As you know, many Korean old > timers still hate the Japanese for what they did. No reason to think that > Ueshiba, who wasn't a top level player in the 1940s, would be known in > Korea. > Even if he was, he was probably known as an Aikibudo teacher. > > When the wall came down between Japan and Korea things began to poor into > Korea from Japan. As Gm Ji has stated time and time again, it was at this > time that he first saw a book on Ueshiba's art and in that book the name > Aikido was used. > > Aikido, Hapkido, same same. Thus he shortened the name to Kido to be > unique, but then he later went back to using Hapkido. > > I wasn't there, I don't know for sure. But it all seems very plausible to > me. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com You may be right - but I guess it's just my deep seated suspicion that History tends to be bent and shaped to the whim of the person telling the history. I think back how in the 60's the Koreans always told me that the forms I was learning were Korean, no mention of Shotokan kata. How Tae Kwon Do came from Kwon Bup, no mention that it was commonly known as Kempo, or that Tang Soo Do, Tae Soo Do were ways to pronounce Karate . . . . perhaps he did not know about the name Aikido. But it's a bit strange that in two different places you end up with the same name (in Chinese). Seems as the arts grew the names changed to fit the history they wanted to present . . . . but like I said, I am just a suspicious person now days. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido central To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You may be right - but I guess it's just my deep seated suspicion that > History tends to be bent and shaped to the whim of the person telling > the history. I think back how in the 60's the Koreans always told me > that the forms I was learning were Korean, no mention of Shotokan kata. > How Tae Kwon Do came from Kwon Bup, no mention that it was commonly > known as Kempo, or that Tang Soo Do, Tae Soo Do were ways to pronounce > Karate . . . . perhaps he did not know about the name Aikido. But it's > a bit strange that in two different places you end up with the same name > (in Chinese). > > Seems as the arts grew the names changed to fit the history they wanted > to present . . . . but like I said, I am just a suspicious person now > days. It seems strange. But the situations are almost totally reversed. In one you have easily and readily documented proof that the Korean Karate arts grow straight from the Japanese Karate arts, yet many Koreans would not or could not admit the obvious. But... Hapkido can still not be proven to come directly or indirectly from Takeda's AikiJuJutsu, yet the claim of a direct link to Japan and to Takeda was there from the very beginning and continues on to this very day. Why was there a difference? The individual(s) involved? Any number of possibilities can be postulated. The name thing isn't unusual at all. Aiki, Hapki. The jump from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo to Aikido worked in just the same was as the jump from Hapkiyusul to Hapkido. Guess we'll have to wait (another year?) for Dr. Kimm's new book to come out before we'll know for sure, or at least know more. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:28:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Titles and accolades are rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things such as coming home in the evenings to a loving family. But NOT using the master title is a bit over the top in my estimation. It appears to me that we've allowed a usable word to become unacceptable over political incorrectness. "Master" doesn't mean lordship or have any worship connotations. At least not at our school. Master is used in most all trades. We have master plumbers, master mechanical, master of arts in college, master sergeant, master gunnery, chief master, and even a master hard drive. In martial arts, "master" means someone has reached a certain level in their training and instruction - nothing more. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:37:29 -0500 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido central Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray: Seo In Sun is no longer associated with the Daehan Kidowhe (Korea Kido Association). Hasn't been for a while. I thought you knew that? <<>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "jakskru" To: Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:08:53 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] bridge Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net after much discussion with my "outranking me" brother, i have a question... or a request rather.... how does one bridge the gap between technique and free sparring?....to be more specific, are there any exercises or drills that one can do to to get technique into an actual combat situation? at our HKD school, the two are seperate entities and i was wondering if there was a proven way to bridge this gap.... --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 00:20:35 -0500 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] rank, title, art... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Agreed. Specially if you change the wording to 'did' provide a good source of information. But now all the posturing and nonsense just doesn't do a thing for me with the exception of the 'Journal' and 'ATM' and even ATM is getting political. <<>> Afraid that is way before my time, but I hear you. I grew up with a nannie who called me Master Jere till I was around 13 or 14. My grandparents who passed away in the 70's did the same thing from Norway. I did not hear the word commonly used till the late 80's in the KMA. For the first couple of decades when we called our teacher sabumnim and that was it. My first teacher was a 7th dan from the ROK and did not care for the English terms. But at the same time, master is used as a level of competency in the construction trades and even skydiving and scuba diving. Lets just hope we don't start seeing grandmaster carpenters governed by supreme great grandmaster carpenters. :) <<>> Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "fabrice carfantan" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Senior TSD MDK Dans... Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:54:15 +0200 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello I practise Soobahkdo MDK in France. I am interested to know to know where they (Dans# 02 and 03) live and teach ? thank you >From: Master Arce >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Senior TSD MDK Dans... >Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:16:25 -0700 (PDT) > > Hi Master Terry...thank you Sir :) > > Yes, they (Dans# 02 and 03) are still active, and >attend many seminars, promotions, etc. > > > > > > > >Steve > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Make Yahoo! your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido central -and- rank, titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray: Seo In Sun is no longer associated with the Daehan Kidowhe (Korea > Kido Association). Hasn't been for a while. I thought you knew that? Preceeding that quoted material was the line... "More history, or another angle on it... an old write up:" And on rank and titles, I clearly recall hearing Master in common KMA usage in the mid-70s. But prior to that.?.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Chen Zhong absent from taekwondo worlds Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chinese Olympic champion Chen Zhong absent from taekwondo worlds www.chinaview.cn BEIJING, Apr. 11 (Xinhuanet) -- Chinese Chen Zhong, tiwce Olympic champion in Sydney and Athens, will not take part in the taekwondo world champoinships set for April 13-17 in Madrid. The Chinese 16-strong team left Beijing for the world champoinships on Sunday and Chen (+72kg) was absent. She is yet to recover after a knee operation last month, according to a team official. The 22-year-old has been annoyed by the knee problem for a while and she overcame the injury to defend her title of women's +67kg in Athens last August. The Chinese team is therefore spearheaded by Olympic champion Luo Wei, who snatched women's 67kg title in Athens and will debut in the category of 72kg in Madrid. The team also includes Wang Ying, runner-up in 2003 championships, and 1999 world champion Wang Shuo. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: brent b To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More on the Ki Hap (I think) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Clark, What? Grain Belt isn't good enough for you :-) Brent Balfanz the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: Message: 10 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 17:44:58 -0400 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: More on the Ki Hap (I think) By the way I am looking forward to the next couple of weeks of having a decent beer:-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] New summer program for Korean Studies Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Dear colleagues, Keimyung University is pleased to announce its new summer program for Korean Studies, KISAKS (Keimyung International Summer Academy for Korean Studies). The program will take place from July 4 to August 12. It is open to all undergraduate students, who will be able to make the program part of their academic degree. This year KISAKS will offer thirteen different courses related to Korea, ranging from an introduction to the Korean language to the history, modern politics, and arts of Korea. The courses will be taught in English by experienced teachers who are experts in their respective feilds. Students will be able to choose up to three courses (nine credits). For more information, including how to apply, please visit our website http://kisaks.kmu.ac.kr, or send an e-mail to kisaks@kmu.ac.kr. Please note that the deadline for applications is May 31, 2005. If you send an e-mail with your address, we can also send brochures explaining the program. Sem Vermeersch coordinator, KISAKS --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:34:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Exit lurk mode Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Do you really think any government program is better than the private sector? When I hear "hi I am here from the government and I am here to help you" I want to hold onto my cash and lock the doors." MC Reply, I left a decade of government service because when you remove the need to be profitable from the core decision process, focus and efficiency get thrown out with the bath water IMHO. Government control of any commodity means shifting of power to a very small segment of the population that control political power (use your imagination to figure out by what means). Consumer control of a commodity generally leads to a Darwinistic selection process where those that add value to clients survive and thrive in proportion to the value added, and those that don't do not survive....just look at how many wanna be strip mall McDojangs fail in the first 3 to 5 years.... Stepping off soap box and returning to lurk mode, MC recovering government leach/tick born again capitalistic pig --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank and politics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "JC, I think a lot of us believe legitimacy of rank is important. Otherwise we wouldn't have it. Not so sure about title. I don't use it myself, for me it is enough that my KJN gave it and my seniors choose to use it when they refer to me. I too have a problem with people jumping here and there just to inflate their rank. But you seem to be saying that any rank increase outside the US Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do Federation is not legitimate. Now I don't know Ho Sik Pak, and I am not trying to defend him, but I believe that that attitude is elitist and just plain wrong. I know a lot of very very good practitioners outside the federation. Most of the splits were due to politics, and they are continuing to this very day. And lets face it, martial artist continue to grow as long as they continue to practice and seek." MC Reply Master Danny Dunn makes an excellent point. I left the womb of my own Federation for political reasons, but never stopped practice or the quest for knowledge. My current Federation and Dojang meet all my needs in both areas. At some point my current instructor and Federation may choose to acknowledge my continued practice with a "new rank." But what will really matter in the end is my continued practice.... Gotta get back to work, MC Train with jung do in your hearts The rest is commentary --__--__-- Message: 14 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rank Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:08:15 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net But wouldn't you only need to outrank you most senior student when you begin a new organization? There wouldn't be a need to immediately become a 9th dan, would there? Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:GladewaterSooBahkDo@msn.com] Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:21 PM To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank Danny I agree with you. My point is Master Pak and others do not get there title from a senior Ko Dan Ja. They assume it themselves. I don't mean to sound negative toward Master Pak as a practitioner. He is a very good one. I also respect rank from other styles and organizations. My point is just because you leave an organization and start your own does constitute a promotion. JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest