Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:56:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #155 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Master Titles (Edward Peters, III) 2. Re: Rank? Dan? (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Frank's Rank (Bruce Sims) 4. more Madrid info (Ray) 5. Re: Re: Rank? Dan? (Ray) 6. Taekwondo will remain in 2008 Olympics (Ray) 7. Re: The_Do (Beungood8@aol.com) 8. learning Hangul online (Ray) 9. ruff teacher (Jye nigma) 10. Re: ruff teacher (Jay O'Connor) 11. Re: Re: The_Do (Luv42lions@aol.com) 12. Lopez Wins Third World Taekwondo Title (Ray) 13. from USA Taekwondo (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:56:39 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Master Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My best experience in KMA. I use to instruct in HKD at a school here in austin. the guy who taught the mornign TKD class was a 5th or 6th dan in TKD. He was also a customer of mine when I worked at a camera store. I knew him on two diffrent levels. He came to my class one night to see how we did sparring, his eyes were wide. I asked him if I should introduce him to the class as Master XXXXXX or as I knew him from the camera store Dr XXXXXX. His response was Just call me Will. Umm...OK I will have a hard time with that here or at the camera store. But that was it, no ego, no rank, let's just kick each other. We had a blast. P.S. I almost got in trouble at work for for calling him Will. Rank is good but it is a time marker more than anything. Edward --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:14:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank? Dan? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....the difference between him and Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim, and the other original five Kwan leaders. is that they (the five originals) assumed rank out of necessity. Because no one had rank. Master Pak and others assume the title because they chose to leave an organization over political reasons or they got there feeling hurt, or didn't get there way, or what ever reason....." I don't train in TKD or TSD so from that standpoint I don't have any investment in the answer to this question. The reason I ask is because this part of the story has always not quite added up to for me. If I am understanding the oral tradition at all correctly there were Korean ex-pat who returned to Korea after WW II. Apparently they had some rank in whatever it was that they studied in Japan. Right so far? Ok so then they start teaching what they learned in Japan to the Korean population and started giving out ranks--- but these were not sanctioned by their teachers in Japan because the things they were teaching were considered (by them?) to be a "new" art (read also: "a Korean art"). Am I still on the ball here? Here's where things start to come unglued for me. If they were teaching the "old" art--- the Japanese art--- then I can see where they would keep their designated rank and continue to work towards promotions. They would also seek validation for the ranks that THEY awarded to their Korean students by getting their paper from Japan. Make sense? If it does could someone explain the following? a.) How is it that a "new" art was produced but they did not start over again and regrade themselves from White belt in the new curriculum? b.) How is it that they would even use a belt rank system if what they were representing was a Korean art which traditionally never had belt ranks at all? c.) If their material and structure was so Japanese, why go through all of this stuff about ancient arts of the native Koreans? Its not like this stuff keeps me up late at night but to a person on the outside looking in it seems like these ex-pats were the first to teach that KMA is a matter of playing the angles rather than actually working to become a better person. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 05:39:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Frank's Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....For the record, I am not upset. I simply strongly disagree with someone being judged, someone I know well, by someone who has issues of what he has done. Master Pak DID get rank from Hwang Kee. That is not in dispute. What I am disputing is that you indicated he promoted himself and that is simply untrue......" OK. I am probably gonna be real sorry for ever saying anything here. This is a classic case of what I have been talking about for sometime. Hypothetical Situation a.) Frank wants to be called something and he has been specific about what he wants to be called. Its what he is asking for, and people who are sensitive to what Frank wants are going to give Frank what he is asking for because he entitled to it from those people. They believe it and Frank believes it. So far, so good. b.) Bruce could just about care what people call him. c.) Frank may or may not be called what he wants by Bruce depending on a whole lot of things. Frank may or may not care whether he is called what he wants by Bruce. So far through all of these examples there is no entitlement. People are doing that which is consistent with their beliefs. So far I see this as "very Korean". In the Korean culture people do not have regard necessarily because they have a piece of paper or a title as much as they are regarded as worthy of respect and the title follows. Call it "form follows function" if you will. In the modern world this carried some caveats but work with me for a second. Now lets talk about rank. (Hypothetical Situation 2) 1.) Bruce has a 8th Dan awarded to him for having a bunch of schools he brought into an organization. Doesn't matter that yesterday he was a 4th dan. Today he is an 8th Dan. because of the rank he wants to be called "Grandmaster" or "the All-seeing Eye", "Prince of Darkness"..... whatever. People find out that Bruce was given a "magic promotion" and decide they are not going to honor Bruces' request. 2.) Bruce gets pissed and demands the regard he thinks he has coming. I see this as singularly "non-Korean". The entire situation is contrived including the rank system, the titles and Bruces sense of entitlement. Now. Given the amount of trouble that we have had regarding rank and titles over the years, will somebody tell me what it is going to take for people to understand that the reason the system does not work is that it NEVER worked. It was flawed to begin with and has produced a failed experiment in structuring arts which traditionally have been taught and passed along in an unstructured fashion? To me it seems that people are continually bending things to get a certain result the way a scientist might bend a light beam with a magnet to get it to illuminate only one very specific spot in a very specific way. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] more Madrid info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Madrid, April 15 Islamic Republic News Agency World-Taekwondo-Iran Behzad Khodadad and Youssef Karami from Iran won one silver and one bronze in the 17th World Taekwondo Championships here Thursday. In 58 kg, Khodadad lost to his South Korean opponent 9-7 in the final, standing second. The Iranian representative had already defeated players from Thailand, Argentine, Belgium, Malaysia, and the Philippines. In 84 kg, 2004 Olympic bronze medalist Karami failed to book a berth in the final as he was beaten by his South Korean rival 8-6. On his way to the semifinal, Karami had edged past representatives of Italy, Ireland, Denmark, and Turkey. Winning 30 points each, Iran and South Korea jointly top the table of the 17th edition of the world taekwondo event. Iran grabbed an invaluable gold medal in under-72 kg on the first day as 2004 Athens Olympic gold medalist, Hadi Saei, came under spotlight again, winning the coveted gold medal Wednesday. The Iranian phenom, who was suffering from a leg injury, advanced to the second round as he was drawn no confrontation in the opening clashes and his opponent from Estonia refused to appear on the mat. He handed his Swiss rival a humiliating 9-3 defeat in the second round. In a cutthroat quarterfinal match the veterans called early final of under-72 kg category, World Taekwondo Player of the Year 2004, Saei, managed to edge past South Korea's Song Hyum-mum 9-8. Spaniard Daniel Martinez, who was supported by over 4,000 home fans, was also victimized, losing to the world number one 12-6. Renowned Japanese player, Takahino Niimi, surrendered to his injuries he picked in the semifinal against Saei, leaving the mat in favor of his title-thirsty opponent. The red-clad Saei stole the glittering gold with a 5-2 victory over Russian finalist Alan Akoev. Carlos Vasquez of Venezuela and Niimi won bronze. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank? Dan? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If I am understanding the oral tradition at all correctly there were Korean > ex-pat who returned to Korea after WW II. Apparently they had some rank in > whatever it was that they studied in Japan. Right so far? Correct for a couple of the kwan heads like Lee Won-kuk and Ro Byung-jik. But not correct for Hwang Kee and other kwan heads. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo will remain in 2008 Olympics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo will remain in 2008 Olympics, says committee Inside JoongAng Daily by Brian Lee April 16, 2005 - The head of the International Olympic Committee has offered assurances that taekwondo will remain an Olympic sport for the foreseeable future, according to members of the Korea Olympic Committee. A recent corruption scandal and allegations of biased refereeing have given rise to talk that taekwondo might not retain its status as a full Olympic sport in the 2008 Beijing Games. But Jacques Rogge, president of the Olympics' governing body, told Korea Olympic Committee president Kim Jung-gil at a meeting in Switzerland this week that Korean taekwondo's recent reform drive had alleviated those concerns, according to local committee members. Kim Un-yong, formerly the top official in Korean taekwondo, was convicted last year of embezzling 3.84 billion won ($3.75 million) from the World Taekwondo Federation and the World Taekwondo Headquarters. Mr. Kim, who was also an International Olympic Committee vice president, was instrumental in the drive to make taekwondo a full-fledged Olympic sport, which it became in 1988. Taekwondo has also been dogged by assertions in recent years that referees at international competitions, including the Olympics, had swung decisions in favor of Korean athletes. Korea's taekwondo organizations have made some rule changes and are considering adopting electronic gear to make scoring more verifiable. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:47:51 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/15/2005 7:06:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: The teacher's name was Mr. Bates. Well trained in urban street techniques and Shorin Ryu. It was hard for me to call him Master. The title Master coupled with his last name always embarrassed me. Something I will never get over. Did he train with a Michael Hunt?... --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] learning Hangul online Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Learning Hangul... Korean Online - Hangul http://www.johnwasham.com/koreanonline/hangul.shtml Learning Hangul with soyongdori - http://library.thinkquest.org/20746/non/index.html World Languages - http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Korean.htm --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:24:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, csemt@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] ruff teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=92 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:26:01 -0600 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ruff teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye nigma wrote: > http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=92 > Looked like a clean throw, to me. But if you're the kind of person to explode on contact, maybe martial arts is not the best hobby for you Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Luv42lions@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:33:07 EDT Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You guys are making this stuff up! As for you, Mr. Beungood...Hmmm...I suggest a new screen name for you! How 'bout: Tingung Notti Tingz! ROFLMAO Rebekah Dickens ITA member, TX --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Lopez Wins Third World Taekwondo Title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lopez Wins Third World Taekwondo Title Friday, April 15, 2005 (04-15) 13:39 PDT MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Two-time Olympic champion Steven Lopez of the United States won his third world taekwondo title Friday, capturing the welterweight gold medal with a 3-2 victory over Ali Tajik of Iran. Their match was delayed by an unsuccessful Spanish protest over Lopez receiving the decisive point in the fourth round of his 3-2 semifinal victory over Rosendo Alonso. In the finweight division, South Korea's Kim Jin-Hee won the title, defeating Iran's Feizollah Nafjam 4-1. The South Koreans also won the women's welterweight gold, with Hwang Kyung-seon beating Gwladys Epangue of France 7-2. Host Spain won its first gold medal of the championships when Belen Asensio beat South Korea's Yu Eun-Young 4-1 to take the women's finweight title. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] from USA Taekwondo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steven Lopez Wins Gold, Mandy Meloon Earns Bronze at Day Three of World Taekwondo Championships COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - The United States got on the medal board Friday during the third day of competition at the World Taekwondo Championships in Madrid, Spain. Two-time Olympic gold medalist Steven Lopez (Sugar Land, Texas) won his third straight world title with a 3-2 win over Iran's Ali Tajik in the men's welterweight final. Meanwhile Mandy Meloon (Sugar Land, Texas) captured bronze in the women's finweight class. After a first-round bye, Lopez won six consecutive matches, including two by sudden death, to claim the gold medal. He defeated Korea's Chang-Ha Jang in the second round (2-2 sudden death), won by withdrawal due to injury over Croatia's Filip Vucagic in the third round, and beat Brazil's Carlos Isisdoro (3-2) in the fourth round to advance to the quarterfinals. There he won another 3-2 decision over Konan Guessan of the Ivory Coast, then claimed his second sudden death victory (3-3) over Spain's Rosendo Alonso in the semis before beating Tajik in the final. Alonso claimed a bronze medal along with Australia's Daniel Jukic. Meloon won the second world championship medal of her career on Friday (she won flyweight bronze in 1997). Following a first-round bye, Meloon reeled off three consecutive victories over Croatia's Azra Zukanovic (8-1), Jordan's Awatef Al-Assaf (9-9 sudden death), and China's Feng Cheng (8-6) in the quarterfinals. In the semifinals she dropped a close 4-3 decision to eventual silver medalist Eun-Young Yu of Korea. Yu lost in the finals to Spain's Belen Asensio. Sumeyye Gulec of Germany claimed the other bronze medal in the women's finweight class. In men's finweight action, Luis Reyes (Chatsworth, Calif.) advanced to the fourth round before losing. Reyes received a bye in the first round, then won by disqualification over a fighter from Krygzstan in the second round. In the third round, Reyes defeated Tahiti's Teddy Chene, 6-3, but dropped a 7-1 decision in the fourth round to eventual gold medalist Jin-Hee Kim of Korea. Kim defeated Iran's Feirollah Nafjem in the final. Bronze medalists were Gerardo Rodriguez of Mexico and Magomedev Seyfula of Russia. Women's welterweight Brittany Nickolyn (Dallas, Texas) also received a first-round bye, but lost in sudden death in the second round to Marjolijn Abbink of the Netherlands after both fighters were tied 4-4 at the end of regulation. Kyong-Seon Hwang of Korea won the gold medal, Gwladys Epangue of France took the silver, while Spain's Ibone Lallana and Croatia's Sandra Saric claimed the bronze medals. Competition resumes on Saturday with the bantamweight and heavyweight divisions competing. Men's bantamweight Brian Gallagher (Littleton, Colo.) will face Sachuk Siarhei of Belarus in the first round. Heavyweight Steven Ostrander (San Antonio, Texas) has a first-round bye and then will fight the winner of the match between Strechan Yvheni of Belarus and Nathan Mall of Great Britain. In the women's competition on Saturday, bantamweight Eleni Koutsilianos (Astoria, N.Y.) received a first-round bye and will face either Lorraine Catalan of the Philippines or Debora Nunes of Brazinl in the second round. Heavyweight Lauren Cahoon (Miami, Fla.) faces an opening-round match with Kiriaki Kouvari of Greece. The World Taekwondo Championships run through Sunday and feature 918 athletes from 124 countries. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest