Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:25:23 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #162 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Sar Bum Nim Grading (Ken Nessworthy) 2. Re: Recognition (Bruce Sims) 3. To Master maldanado (Frank Clay) 4. Judo Belt History (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. Re: Rank (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: GM Sells (Bruce Sims) 7. Re: Re: Influences (Ray) 8. RE:Master When? (Kevin Luttrell) 9. master level (Ray) 10. RE: master level (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 11. How the Masters Got Their Ranks (Ray) 12. Re: Influences on Hapkido (SPIVEY JR) 13. GM Lim's US Students (Chris LaCava) 14. Quo vadis, North Korea? Open Lecture Series (Ray) 15. in USA Today (Ray) 16. Master in USTU (rich hodder) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ken Nessworthy" To: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:59:48 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sar Bum Nim Grading Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just got back from Rotterdam and been checking my mail and it seems like I have missed a lot threads on the group. Anyway the weekend at the EMTF European champs went very well and both myself and three other sar bum nim candidates were confirmed as passing the grading which lasted a total of 3 days. This was very tiring and stressful on all of us but the results were well appreciated. Ken --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "......GM Lim studied Kumdo & Japanese Iai, He then founded A unique style of Korean Swordsmanship. This style has been influenced by different cultures but is now a Korean style recognized by both the Japanese & Korean governments as a Korean style. I know you have issues but lets keep your issues off the boards....." Perhaps you could enlighten the readership here on exactly what the nature of that recognition is. BTW: Its probably just a tad disingenuous to beg to keep issues off the boards when you were the one that posted about Lim and his tapes on a number of forums in the first place. Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:09:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Master maldanado Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master M, It is my understanding that originally Funakoshi had no rank and that go dan was kinda forced on him by the JKA or what was going to become the JKA. For this reason very traditional shotokan schools still only go to fifth dan, so if you run into someone like fromDai Ichi Shotokan that is a fifth dan that's it. They have no more dan ranks. Personally, I kinda like that system. Not good for marketing I think, but if yea really think about it, after about 5th dan everything is contribution based anyhow. f. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:48:56 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Judo Belt History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray asked about Mikonosuke Kawaishi: >Do you know which colors he used? I assume this was more than just the addition of an under-Dan brown belt.?.? Yep. You can read about it and other facts of judo belt history at http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm That page mentions the "traditional" brown belt, but another page http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm mentions that the differentiation between yudansha and mudansha did not occur until 1883, and black belts didn't make their appearance until 1886 or 1887. The brown belt was introduced sometime after that. I don't have my research handy, but I'm pretty sure the brown belt was around by 1918. Take care, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:52:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "....Bruce, well said - but that is sadly changing also, self recognition and promotion, grandstanding, title grabbing and high compensation appear to be taking over. Higher rank, in my opinion, also means more responsibility to the art....." And that is where I keep getting stuck, over and over again. before we had rank I can imagine a situation a lot like the sword class of GM Koo. Yes, there IS rank, but unless you watch keenly how people line up you couldn't guess who was what. Nobody wears a belt and everybodys' uniform is identical (except older belts are quite a bit more faded). AND--- since Hapkido arts are non-competitive what is the purpose? Its not as though people are competing and need to track skills levels, weight and seniority. I also see a little problem with the payment system. By this I mean that here in the States if a person has paid his money he naturally assumes that he is entitled to get something OUT of the activity. As you and I agree, moving up through the ranks means you are required to put MORE INTO the system. I wonder how many people would be busting their humps to make rank if every time they got promoted they had to take on the responsibility of teaching their art to greater and greater numbers of people over wider and wider areas with no thought of compensation or reimbursement. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:54:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: GM Sells Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kevin: Great information about GM Sells. My sense is (I don't have any anecdotal information) that this is the same attitude that drives folks like Rudy and JR as they progress through their MA careers. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The five major infusions into the Hapkido arts include: > > 1.) The ancient Tribal Military arts which formed the foundations for what > we study today. Doesn't this portion of the "history" come via Kuk Sul Won's claims? I've always thought this was akin to Taekwondo's claims of a direct lineage to Subbaki. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:18:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Master When? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Hilland, I dont know if I am considered "main stream TKD" but for the United States ChungDoKwon Association we have seperate instructor credentials and it goes something like this. 1st dahn begins eligibility for associate instructor, anyone 16 years old or older. Our association has monitoring of individual teaching hours recorded in a log and various certification requirements that must be met, along with a background check against any criminal activity. A letter of recomendation from a certified instructor who is responsible for your progress. An interview process with GM Sell. Then hopefully you recieve some credentials. the next levels are certified instructor, chief instructor. At 4th dahn you become eligible for associate master, master, and Senior master, I think you have to be 8th dahn to go any further in the instructors eligibility. Now keep in mind, you dont automatically recieve these "instructor titles" they are seperate from regular rank. You still have regular rank requirements and are expected to continue working and progressing on your own personal training. This is the way it works with the United States ChungDoKwan Association. I personally like it, and I think its an honorable way to maintain good standards. thanks, Master Kevin Luttrell Director The Martial Artist Foundation Springfield, Mo. Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.sporttkd.com or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up on Sport Martial Arts events:= "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] master level Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere asked about master level in Kukki-TKD and other Karate-ish arts. One will frequently hear that master rank is the rank at which you can officially promote your students to 1st Dan. USA Taekwondo puts that at 4th Dan. When I visited HC Hwang and also the SBD MDK in Seoul they also indicated that master level = "Dan tester" = 4th Dan... unless I misunderstood them. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] master level Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:12:47 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My experience indicates 4th/5th Dan with current trends indicating 4th Dan. An interesting thought, from Forest Morgan of "Living the Martial Way" - "How could someone who wasn't a Master yesterday be a Master today?" Jason --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] How the Masters Got Their Ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A link off the URLs mentioned by Dr. D. Bob (Dakin). :) Interesting reading... http://judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm Fitting in with what happened in Korea after WWII is: "Rushing in to fill the vacuum left by the Butoku-kai, various dojo coalesced to perpetuate the art and legitimize its members' ranks. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, each new association, including the Gojukai, Shito-kai, Chito-kai, Shotokai and Japan Karate associations codified their rules and issued rank accordingly. Generally, several instructors created a board of directors or council to govern the association. Some officer, be it the chief instructor, president, director or chairman would have signature authority on menjo (rank certificates). In this way, the senior-most members would attain their rank by being acknowledged and "signed off" by the board or committee. Other times, a senior member of one faction would attain high enough rank from the faction-head to then go out and form his own style or organization. Supposedly, the famous Masutatsu Oyama received his eighth dan from Goju-kai head Gogen Yamaguchi. Oyama later formed his own style that was not completely a type of goju-ryu." Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:18:51 -0700 (PDT) From: SPIVEY JR To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences on Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, thanks for the info by way of reply. So, to continue exploring these influences, I believe we must ask: just how and when were the major influences other than Choi Young Sool's Japanese training incorporated into the mainstream of Hapkido? Were they appended by Korean followers of Choi after Choi had essentially codified his art, or do they precede Chois' influence? Or, to view it from another perspective, was there a martial art in Korea called "Hapkido" or any other name before Choi returned from Japan that reflected the same or similar techniques as Choi's art? Do you understand what I'm trying to ask? Maybe I'll try one more tack: if we strip Ji's art down to just its technical basis from Choi (disregarding for a moment the Koean techniques he added to Choi's core techniques), do we have a Korean art, or a Japanese art that was taken back to Korea, where it was infused with long-standing Korean traditions to become the Hapkido that most of us know, to some degree, today? Regards, Howard --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Chris LaCava" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:14:41 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Lim's US Students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere H. <> There is actually 8 of us. I'll assume that must have been a typo in TKD Times. :) The "New Guys" are... Myself since 2002 and Kevin Sogor since 2004 Take care. Chris "from CT" LaCava's Martial Arts Westport, CT. http://lmaa.bravepages.com Online Store- http://www.cafepress.com/hapkidogear --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Quo vadis, North Korea? Open Lecture Series Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Dear colleagues, the Seoul National University Unification Forum together with Hanns Seidel Foundation Seoul and Free University Berlin invite you to an open lecture series on "Quo vadis, North Korea - Current Trends in Politics, Economy and Society". The first lecture will open on Wednesday, April 20th, 4-6 p.m. at the International Conference Hall of the Graduate School of Public Administration of Seoul National University. After an introductory remark by Prof. Ha Yongchul of the Unification Forum of SNU, Peter Beck, Director of the Northeast Asia Program of the International Crisis Group, will talk about "North Korea and Japan - Are sanctions next?". The next lecture will open on Wednesday, April 27th, 4-6 p.m. at the International Conference Hall of the Graduate School of Public Administration of Seoul National University. Then, Prof. Andrei Lankok, Australian National University, will talk about "Economic and social changes in North Korea". All interested persons are invited to the lecture series. Yours, Bernhard Seliger Dr. Bernhard Seliger Hanns Seidel Stiftung - Seoul Office Room 501, Soo Young Bldg., 64-1, Hannam 1 Dong, Yongsan-gu Seoul, Republic of Korea Tel.+ 82 2 790 5344 Fax. + 82 2 790 5346 --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] in USA Today Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lopez sister keeps up with world champion brothers By Beau Dure USA TODAY 19 April Two-time Olympic gold medalist Steven Lopez isn't the only taekwondo athlete in his family. Now, he's not even the only world champion. Lopez added a third consecutive world title to his two Olympic gold medals, winning the welterweight division by beating Iran's Ali Tajik 3-2 in the final in Madrid. Two days later, his brother Mark Lopez won gold in the featherweight class with a 7-6 decision over South Korea's Myong-Seon Song. The same day, little sister Diana Lopez won the women's featherweight gold with the most dominant performance of all the siblings, winning her first five bouts by at least four points before prevailing over South Korea's Sae-Rom Kim 2-1 in the final. The other U.S. medalist, women's finweight bronze medalist Mandy Meloon, trains with the Lopez family in Sugar Land, Texas. All three Lopez siblings are world champions, but only one can be USATODAY.com's U.S. Olympic Athlete of the Week. This week, it's Diana Lopez. --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:54:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master in USTU Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, Master rank in the USTU starts at 4th Dan (all be it they were known as junior masters). This has changed over the years as more and more Americans entered that rank. There was a big push about 10 years ago to have 5th Dan the lowest rank at which you could promote students to 1st dan, but it got put on the back burner, I would guess that is because to many of the failings (felonies, corruption, prostitution, embezzlement, etc...ad infinitum) got put on the front burner as well they should have. When I first started with the ITF in the early 60's, master rank was not even heard of except for Major General Choi, it was extended to high ranking folks after some time, most notably GM Chuck Serriff. As time went on those folks in the ITF that wanted to keep their high stature, kept upping the ante. In the WTF, for along time, first, second and third Dan, were considered student grades, fourth, fifth and sixth Dan were Master grades, and seventh, eighth and ninth Dan were (Grand) Master grades. This I am sure will change over time to reflect what the ITF has done, but, in truth what does it really matter. As Master West has said on many occasions, it is not rank that makes you a master, it is the true mastery of not only your art but your self and your being, that makes you who you are, master or not. Rank just makes for putrid olfactory sensations. have fun Yankee, Rich --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest