Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:53:26 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #163 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Master West in Austin this weekend.... Solicitation of your thoughts on seminar tee-shirts and modern technology.... (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 2. Bruce Lee (Eddie Urbistondo) 3. Guhapdo (Todd Miller) 4. Re: Influences (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Influences on Hapkido (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Re: Influences (Ray) 7. Re: hankido (Klaas barends) 8. nice demo1 (Jye nigma) 9. another demo (Jye nigma) 10. hee il cho (Jye nigma) 11. rare footage (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:57:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master West in Austin this weekend.... Solicitation of your thoughts on seminar tee-shirts and modern technology.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a final reminder that Master West and crew will be in Austin, TX this Saturday, you can find more info at www.natkd.com/events. On a side note: We’ve decided to try the Café Press technology and build several sets of seminar tee-shirts. With different logo’s, seals and catchy slogan “Come to scenic Austin, meet new and exciting people… … and hurt them”. We’ll have a computer there to let people order on demand. Has anyone used this services before? If anyone is interested you can view the seminar shirts at http://www.cafepress.com/natkd/579057. I’d be very interested in any feedback on either the café press technology or the shirt designs themselves. This is the first time we’ve tried this. There are three fronts and three different backs. Thanks for you time and thoughts, Jason --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Eddie Urbistondo" To: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:28:50 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Lee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Lee probably would have learned ground grappling, but by the same token Bruce Lee is not an authority in Chinese Martial Arts. He was not purposely taught the full Wing Chun system. Eddie Urbistondo --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:58:29 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Guhapdo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Perhaps you could enlighten the readership here on exactly what the nature of that recognition is. BTW: Its probably just a tad disingenuous to beg to keep issues off the boards when you were the one that posted about Lim and his tapes on a number of forums in the first place. The only thing I asked you to keep off the boards is your insults. GM Lim,s tapes are available for those that want them to learn the orthodox Hapkido of DJN Choi. As far as recognition, what about that do you not understand? Chung Suk Guhapdo is recognized as a distinct Korean style of swordsmanship nothing more nothing less. If you would like to learn more about it feel free to visit me in NH. Take care Todd Miller Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Doesn't this portion of the "history" come via Kuk Sul Won's claims? I've always thought this was akin to Taekwondo's claims of a direct lineage to Subbaki. Attributing the message to the messenger seems a bit out of kilter. In Sun Seo wrote a history, but, then, so did Dr. Kimm and a host of other people. This has been the bane of the Hapkido arts for the entire modern era--- the selective reporting, editing and validating of one bit but not another. Know how I know this is where this discussion is going, Ray? You used the "C" word--- claims--- and the "L"-word ("lineage"). Thats what the Hapkido arts has run on for the last fifty years. And it continues right up to your last post because thats the way people want their Hapkido--- lots of claims and opinions (and light on the facts, if you please). If "lineage" and "claims" are the only way you are going to validate Korean traditions then you are already stacking the deck one way. Unless you would like to start using facts and documentation instead of the same old positions I am afraid there really isn't much more to say. Been here; done this, bought the t-shirt. Nothing I can say that can't be found be doing a DD search and locating one of my previous posts. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:22:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences on Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kevin: I appreciate your fervor but would you be willing to accept some advice? If you want to succeed in your efforts you need to stop having the Choi Yong Sul "tail" wag the Hapkido Arts "dog". If you think of the Hapkido arts as a cultural river flowing through Korean History its a whole lot easier to see how various people(s) add into and took out of the Korean traditions. The "headwaters" of the Arts are somewhere out on the steppe back a couple of millenia. Do we still have artifacts? Sure because we still have Ssireum and Mongolian wrestling albeit sanitized for modern tastes. Along the way other branches and floods and springs fed into the Korean traditions. The Buddhist Infusion which helped shape a greater sensitivity for individual ethics also allowed for the use of retraint and subduing the opponent rather than simply killing him out-right. We see this in the Japanese traditions as the transition from Yoroi kumi-uchi (wrestling in armor) to the use of yawara. Did you think that the Koreans were somehow too primitive to have gone through the same transition? If you are talking about fighting techniques you may want to read about the exploits of the Warrior Monks during the Mongol Invasions and again during the Imjin War. How about the introduction of Confucian Infusion? Did you think that the use of Confucian social structure such as the Japanese gleaned from the Tang Dyn was beyond the Koreans? I hope not since such introduction of bureaucratic structure permeates their history for pretty much all of the Common Era. You can find it in something as innocuous as daily school and as out-sized as the governement System for Civil Service Exams. You can find it in the community schools and kwans where Long Fist, Ship PalGwe, Kum-Bup etc are taught all the way to the military embassies sent by China to Korea ending in 1894. And not everybody added to the pot. Mao, Yuan-i used Korean sword material to revive Chinese swordwork when he wrote his encyclopedic "Wu Bei Zhi" in the 16th century. Nor can you ignore the Japanese Infusion of the Occupation which started in 1910 but whose influences went back to the 1880-s--- more than 20 years before Choi was born. The question you may really want to ask is what were the influences of Choi Yong Sul and why did he and his students not do a better job integrating his yawara material into the remanants of the Korean traditions? Long Fist, Tan Tui, Praying Mantis, Taek Kyon, Ssireum and a host of lesser practices were all in Korea BEFORE Choi returned. How come he didn't do more to integrate with those? What about his students? Instead of taking the actual traditions of Korea and bolstering them, documenting them, propagating them, you have people telling fanciful stories and fighting with each other to be the "man in charge". (Am I to understand that THESE are the people who are going to come to the U.S. and preach to US about how to conduct OURselves? About respect for elders, country and culture?) To make things as clear as I possibly can let me use your question, okay? ".....if we strip Ji's art down to just its technical basis from Choi (disregarding for a moment the Koean techniques he added to Choi's core techniques), do we have a Korean art, or a Japanese art that was taken back to Korea, where it was infused with long-standing Korean traditions to become the Hapkido that most of us know, to some degree, today?..." What you have is Chois' material taken back to Korea where it "should" have been infused back into the long-standing Korean traditions and practices assumed by the Koreans as beneficial to their survival. Instead, practitioners of Chois' traditions wanted to share-- but only on THEIR terms. The result is "Chois'-material-flavored-with-Korean-material" when it should be "Korean- material-enjoying-Chois'-take-on-things". You hear me talk about the MYTBTJ? How come Chois' yawara was not used to help cast an innovative interpretation on the Kwon Bup chapter of that manual? Ji "borrowed" Taoist material and some Taek Kyon as well. How come only Suh got around to investigating the role of Chuan Fa in Korea and pretty much only Praying Mantis? And speaking of Praying Mantis how about the masters of the four major Chinese arts in Korea who ALL pre-dated Choi's Japanese material and ALL have Chin Na traditions, boxing traditions and weapons traditions? I don't hear anyone busting their butts to identify and recognize them. What gives Choi the market on how things are done today when 30 years ago he was hardly known. I could go on and on but the fact is that I have said all of this stuff before and its foolish to keep repeating myself. The resources are there. The history is there. The traditions, the ethics and the culture is there-- all for the investigating. If people want to think that Hapkido is something that only occurred at a discrete point in time for a single individual---well, whatever floats their boat. Next year someone else will take the same material, put a new name on it and then we start the same silly arguements all over again--- but with a different personality in the spotlight. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > And it continues right up to your last post because thats the way people want > their Hapkido--- lots of claims and opinions (and light on the facts, if you > please). If "lineage" and "claims" are the only way you are going to validate > Korean traditions then you are already stacking the deck one way. Unless > you would like to start using facts and documentation instead of the same > old positions I am afraid there really isn't much more to say. Been here; > done this, bought the t-shirt. Nothing I can say that can't be found be > doing a DD search and locating one of my previous posts. Please enlighten us again. Tell us about the historical Korean documentation of the unarmed military techniques of the Korean tribal period. That would be defined as the time period predating the Balhae period, yes? So ~1500+ years ago... Not simple references to the existence of ancient military arts and the statement that they trained hard and contested among themselves. Nor mention of a double sword dance which we know nothing about. No cave paintings of guys dancing or fighting or doing who knows what to each other. But an actual body of technique that we commonly see today in Hapkido. My point... we know that a subak and a gum mu and a gak chuh and a sang bak existed, but we do not know what they were like. Is there anything in Hapkido or Hapkiyusul or Kuk Sul Won or HwaRangDo that comes directly from these ancient games and activities? That is the body of fact and documentation that is needed to make the statement that these ancient arts are found today in Hapkido. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Klaas barends Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:22:46 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hankido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > he second level of sophistication is identified in the Daito-ryu > tradition as aiki-jujitsu or "hapki yu sool" in the Korean tradition. > Aikido for its part speaks of "blending" with ones' partner. All three > states indicate the ability to use the nature of the attackers' own > physical structure against them. Disrupting the attackers' foundation, > balance. direction, timing or focus allows for the defender to > optimize his assets in a confrontation with an individual of greater > size or ability. Well-known among Aikido and Daito-ryu practitioners, > this level is less well-known in the Hapkido community with the > exception perhaps of the practitioners in Korea itself. You could say that his is what the late grandmaster Myung Jae Nam was after, with his style of hapkido: hankido Often compared to aikido. Which is not suprising if you know that he was president of the Korean Aikido Federation for some time. (Funny thing is, that also with his students you see those who emphasize the Japanese way in their style of practice. And those with a more Chinese style in their techniques.) And in its ultimate form it would be what is described below. Though I don't really agree with the way the author writes about it. Using terms like 'magic' indicate that the writer doesn't have a clear idea about what he is writing about. > The highest level of expertise is designated "aiki-jitsu" (lit: > "spirit techniques") and is the subject of much debate within both the > Aikido and Daito-ryu aiki-jujitsu community. This level of training > allows the practitioner to exploit the biomechanical responses of the > attackers' own body against him such as "conditioned responses," and > "reflexes". In such cases the defender, then, is able not only to > engage the enemy, unbalance them and use their strength against them, > but incorporate the volition of the partners' own action in defeating > the attack as well. Such practices are often attributed to cosmic > forces loosely termed “Ki” (energy), but the fact remains that only > sound training practices done over and over again seem to consistently > produce this sort of “magic”. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ Dutch HKD Federation http://www.sangmookwan.com/ SangMooKwan International Training Center Korea --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] nice demo1 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/video/others/nicedemo1.wmv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:41:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] another demo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/video/others/nicedemo2.wmv --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hee il cho Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/video/others/heeilchocig.wmv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:43:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] rare footage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/video/others/rheeslowmo.wmv --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest