Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:52:28 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #165 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Influences (Ray) 2. Re: Korean Martial History (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Rare footage, other clips (tim walker) 4. Re: spacers when breaking (Ray) 5. IOC Executive Board meeting (Ray) 6. Elephants tour Seoul sites (Ray) 7. history (Kevin Luttrell) 8. Contribution based (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. master tester (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 10. RE: spacers when breaking (Joseph Pierini) 11. Grandmaster Ji Seminar in Georgia (mccarty@hapkidojang.com) 12. Influences (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 13. spacers when breaking (Gladewater SooBahkDo) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Influences To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I honestly don't want to sound condescending but I am going to make this > even easier than that. > [fuzzy logic snipped] Bruce... Again I ask, what is your historical reference, the body of fact and documentation to which you refer, that gets us back ~1500+ years to the Korean tribal period? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korean Martial History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: Thanks for your thoughts. Let me give a couple of quick answers and please don’t take my brevity as a reflection on your thoughts. Its just that we have been over this stuff so many times. “…….I've always thought this was akin to Taekwondo's claims of a direct lineage to Subbaki. Which pretty much confirms that Bruce doesn't believe in tribal martial arts either….” I give the material credence, but after a few centuries how much is one to find of the original material in what we do today. Mongolian wrestling and its Korea counterparts used to mix hitting-kicking, throwing, tripping and gouging etc etc. Nobody plays like this today but its still part of the heritage. I mean, if my heritage was Germanic, I would want to recognize that heritage but could probably be forgiven if I didn’t speak Gwerman or avoided bratwurst, yes? ".....Mao, Yuan-i used Korean sword material to revive Chinese swordwork When he wrote his encyclopedic "Wu Bei Zhi" in the 16th century. What's your source for this one Bruce? I don't remember seeing any reference to Korean sword work in relation to that piece…..” See: MYTBTJ; Book Two, Chap 2. Author is citing Mao’s WU BEI ZHI which I think is either Chapter 82 or 84 of that work regarding the BON KUK GUM BUP. “……..The question you may really want to ask is what were the influences of Choi Yong Sul and why did he and his students not do a better job integrating his yawara material into the remanants of the Korean traditions? I'm not sure where you're going with this one Bruce…..” This is more of my own personal issue than something of general discussion. Having taught and studied history I have a sense that people returning to a land which has been devastated by adversity begin to pitch-in to reconstruct the culture. They bring to bear their strengthes and wisdom and information. I think that the Koreans with their extreme sensitivity to the established order would have well worked to rebuild the culture with new ideologies and practices albeit in deference to establish customs and culture. Too often the message I get in these discussions is something to the effect of “the Korean culture was dead and gone. We had to start from scratch”, and I continually find evidence that this just wasn’t the case. And why the heck --- of ALL cultures --- even if you DID have to start from scratch --- would you pick the ONE culture responsible for the most damage?!?! Oh, and BTW--- I am right there with you on your quote. (“………. History is change over time, so I think we have to expect change, right? It is for that reason that I think that looking for the "true" hapkido is a quixotic task, because it demands that we select One moment in time and preserve it in amber as the one "true" moment in the existence of an art…….” ) “…….. One can try to do that of course (although the task becomes one of constantly modifying one's interpretation of that moment in an attempt to portray the true art)….” Hence the fix we often find ourselves in these discussions. “………..Hmm. Well, tan tui, longfist and Praying Mantis _may_ have been in Korea before Choi returned from Japan, but again, what's your source? All I've seen is the introduction of Chinese martial arts to the ROK by Chinese refugees fleeing 1949 revolution…..” It’s a whole lot easier just to pull up the available “trees” such as the one for Praying Mantis, note the ones who taught in Korea and check their histories. Yian Pin Jao (student of Wang Yu Shan b.1892), Lin Pin Zhang (student of Ji Chung Ting ) Both of these teachers were in turn taught by Jiang Hua Long (b. 1855). It would help if others would likewise investigate the other traditions to get additional information. Of course, now we are back to the old “lineage” thing again. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:14:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Rare footage, other clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye: You are THE MAN when it comes to finding this stuff. Thanks, and keep 'em coming, please. timo "Primum non nocere" --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In this interesting clip Jye linked to, I noticed spacers (which looked > like 3/8" nuts to me) between the boards. > I have never seen spacers used in breaking in the school I attend and > wonder what the advantages or disadvantages might be. > It looks like it would aid in multiple board breaks, but I've never > tried it. I have never tried it either, but I understand that it makes it MUCH easier. N-boards with spacers is supposed to be like breaking one board N times, i.e. you must supply the force necessary to break one board through the distance between the first board and the last board. So follow-thru is very important. Since you can break far more boards/bricks this way, it makes for a good demo when in front of a crowd of non-martial artists. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] IOC Executive Board meeting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net IOC Executive Board holds productive meetings in Berlin 20 April 2005 The Executive Board of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) today wrapped up two and a half days of meetings in Berlin where representatives of the sports world convened this week to attend the SportAccord International Sports Convention. [snip] On ethics matters, the Executive Board unanimously decided to follow the recommendation of the Ethics Commission and to provisionally deprive Mr Yoshiaki Tsutsumi of all the rights, prerogatives and functions deriving from his IOC honour membership while the investigation in Japan and the inquiry of the Ethics Commission are taking place. Mr Tsutsumi was remanded in custody in March by the Japanese Public Prosecutor for giving false information about stock exchange-quoted companies and falsifying financial statements. On the sports front, it was reported that after constructive discussions with the IOC, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) and The World Taekwondo Federation made substantial changes to their judging systems. [snip] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Elephants tour Seoul sites Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Elephants break out of zoo, stop at restaurant The six were eventually caught; one spent time at Seoul police station MSNBC News Services Updated: 8:27 a.m. ET April 20, 2005 SEOUL, South Korea - Six elephants escaped from a zoo parade and roamed around the South Korean capital Seoul on Wednesday before being herded back to their enclosure. The elephants were on a daily parade outside their enclosure at Seoul Children's Grand Park when one was apparently startled and bolted, a zoo official said by telephone. The five others followed "because they have the tendency to do that," the official said. The elephants stampeded into the garden of a private home and, while being corralled, three suddenly changed direction and went into a nearby restaurant. One elephant charged into an alley near an elementary school and hit a woman with its trunk, Yonhap news agency said. She was being treated at a hospital. "She fell, and I ran away because I was scared," said a man who was standing with the woman when the elephant charged toward them. During the breakout, one elephant was briefly detained at a police station. And while five were quickly herded back to their enclosure, the sixth took longer to be tracked down. The elephants escaped due to the "zookeeper's carelessness," police said. Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:12:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I respect your research and all, but I kinda compare history and philosophy of the way martial arts should be and the way it went in the bible. Of course people will struggle with EGO and Greed and all the other things that challenge us on a day to day basis. But that doesnt mean that it should be used as a model for today's practice. In practice we strive to kick high, importance is placed on a high kick. My own take on this is if we build toward a high kick then we will be able to operate powerfully through the whole range. It makes us better with kicking. Our philosophy is the same, we strive toward a model of behavior that is above the norm. We dont settle for the norm. Just because they were fighting among themselves, Do we have too, or Just because Historically something happened then, why cant we learn from their mistakes and try not to make the same one's over and over again. Its the basic premis of martial arts practice, to learn from not only our own mistakes but from those around us. Setting a high standard, striving for perfect....will we ever reach the "perfect" technique. I hope not.... Bible history is viewed the same way, The Saints made plenty of mistakes, they werent "perfect" but they kept their eyes on perfection and taught their followers to do the same. But they were highly respected not because they were perfect but because they continued to work toward perfection. In the same way, Its a black belt attitude to get back up every time, drive on and try to learn from the experience. thats all that we see in any cultural history. that doesnt mean that we have to accept a lower standard and say, "Well, thats the way GM so and so did it, So its good enough for me. I dont think thats the idea... I think GM so and so would want us to study his teaching and use it as a tool toward effectivness. the effectiveness of any given technique for two people doesnt necessarily fit the same model, but they both can use that Model to study a technique and seek "perfection" of the techniques effectivness for them. One persons perfect technique, doesnt necessarily work for another person as perfect when he uses it exactly the same way. But we must have a model that is used to develop towards effectivness. When we use this same philosophy toward moral standards we should uphold what is just and right, not because GM was perfect. Its because We adopt the same search for perfection that he sought, not only in physical techniques but in our moral attitudes also. Master Kevin Luttrell Director The Martial Artist Foundation Springfield, Mo. Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.sporttkd.com or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up on Sport Martial Arts events:= "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:03:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Contribution based Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clay I must disagree that rank after 5th dan is all contribution based. That is now true in all organizations. I agree it is that way in some but in the Moo Duk Kwan that is not the case. I can only assume that other organizations have strict requirements both physical and mental for ranks above 5th dan. JC --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:32:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] master tester Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray You are correct although maybe not complete in your statement. In the Moo Duk Kwan Master level rank is given to those members that pass the 8 day Ko Dan Ja exam and are promoted to 4th dan. The title of Sam Bom is another test all together. At regional dan testing. Only 4th dan instructors and above may sit at the testing table. The "Masters" do conduct the grading, however, no instructor has the authority to pass or fail any student. Master level instructor conduct the test but they only make recommendations to the chairman of the "TAC" technical advisory committee who is appointed by HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim. When I recommend a student to test for dan. They are tested in front of a group of other masters. recommendations are then sent to headquarters and processed. Rank is not official until HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim and the chairman of the TAC has signed the certificate. JC --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Joseph Pierini" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.napataekwondo.com/pictures3/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures3&UI D=10013 6 cement pavers, nuts used as spacers -J -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 9:15 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking > In this interesting clip Jye linked to, I noticed spacers (which looked > like 3/8" nuts to me) between the boards. > I have never seen spacers used in breaking in the school I attend and > wonder what the advantages or disadvantages might be. > It looks like it would aid in multiple board breaks, but I've never > tried it. I have never tried it either, but I understand that it makes it MUCH easier. N-boards with spacers is supposed to be like breaking one board N times, i.e. you must supply the force necessary to break one board through the distance between the first board and the last board. So follow-thru is very important. Since you can break far more boards/bricks this way, it makes for a good demo when in front of a crowd of non-martial artists. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:20:48 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandmaster Ji Seminar in Georgia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wanted to publicly thank Master James Allison and his students for hosting Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae this past weekend in Georgia. The seminar was a huge success and a lot of fun. When you go ten hours in a day with nothing but bodies hitting the ground, in my book, that's a good day. I loved the southern hospitality and look forward to hosting GM Ji this September, 10 and 11, in Connecticut at my dojang. All are welcome and I'm sure I'll see some of the great people I met and trained with this past weekend. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:24:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Influences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry Are you familiar with the "New Soo Bahk Do Basics) Do Mal Shik Wak Kuk Kwon Do Wak Kuk Jang Kwon Do Wak Kuk Jang Kap Kwan Yo Shik Po Wal she Tago Shik These are techniques introduced by Grandmaster Hwang Kee to the Moo Duk Kwan. I was introduced in 2000 during a Ko Dan Ja testing (The 8 day masters testing process) by HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim >From the information I have found these techniques were translated from the MYDBTJ (Kwon Bup), and were practiced by the Hwa Rang people. Thoughts? JC --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:37:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Spacers when breaking serves only one purpose. To "WOW" the crowd watching you. It lacks humility. Breaking should be a gauge of power and accuracy, and nothing more. We do NOT allow any student to break with spacers. The general public does not usually catch this, all they see at a demo is (He broke xx amount of boards) I broke 7 boards at a demo last year with a side kick. The key was to only tape the front two , to the rest of the stack, Then get some large, tall guys to hold and about 7 or 8 people to back them up. I also suggest using the duct tape around the holders wrist for support. IMHO more people should be training to improve there skill and give less thought to hwo they can impress the public. I see nothing wrong with breaking just break to gauge your power and accuracy. If you want to demo your ability that's OK too. Just demo your ability to break, no your ability to cheat. JC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest