Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:28:33 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #166 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Hapkido influences (Howard Spivey) 2. Re: spacers when breaking (David Hayes) 3. cross training (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Re: The full system (Beungood8@aol.com) 5. TSD and Instructor Certification (J R Hilland) 6. Re: Influences (Ray) 7. Re: cross training (Nathan Miller) 8. Re; Contribution based (kevin_janisse) 9. Re: History (Bruce Sims) 10. Re: History (Bruce Sims) 11. Re: Re: cross training (Ray) 12. Re: Authentic (Beungood8@aol.com) 13. Re: Historical References (Choe'sHapKiDoofMt.Vernon) 14. Hyuk Song (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:33:21 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido influences Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Bruce, It's Howard, not Kevin... Sorry, but I found your reply a bit too rambling to follow completely (no disrespect intended - after all, we're trying to communicate over the internet. The problem could very well be on my end). My question boils down to this: Is the source of technical essence of Hapkido what Choi learned in Japan and brought back to Korea? Suggestions that this one, that one and the other one "should" have added martial material from the Korean tradition seem extraneous to this question. The question I'm posing is one of historical fact, not one of what anybody should have done. If we accept Choi's testimony just for the sake of discussion, all of his martial arts training comes from Japan. Are you suggesting that there is evidence that he added technical material from any of the Korean martial tradtions that you mention, thus creating a synthesis of Korean and Japanese technical material? Or did he simply teach what he had purportedly learned from Takeda, and nothing more? Until we settle that question, all of the discussion about Korean martial traditions dating back centuries seems but a digression. Hope to hear more from you (and everybody else, of course), Howard --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "David Hayes" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:06:26 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I have been following the group for a couple of months now. I recently returned to TKD after a _LONG_ absence. I have never seen spacers used with board breaks I have used them myself breaking slabs back in the days... Once I saw someone break two slabs unspaced. I was pretty impressed. I seem to recall that the strength of materials formula shows that strength increases as a cube of the thickness and square of the width. So yes, breaking eight whatever spaced is like breaking eight singles. breaking two unspaced is going to be eight times as difficult as one (all other factors are equal). At least in round numbers. The formula is something like the material constant x thickness cubed times width squared / the span (or maybe the span squared) something like that anyway. Dave Hayes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] spacers when breaking > > In this interesting clip Jye linked to, I noticed spacers (which looked > > like 3/8" nuts to me) between the boards. > > I have never seen spacers used in breaking in the school I attend and > > wonder what the advantages or disadvantages might be. > > It looks like it would aid in multiple board breaks, but I've never > > tried it. > > I have never tried it either, but I understand that it makes it MUCH easier. > > N-boards with spacers is supposed to be like breaking one board N times, > i.e. you must supply the force necessary to break one board through the > distance between the first board and the last board. So follow-thru is > very important. > > Since you can break far more boards/bricks this way, it makes for a good > demo when in front of a crowd of non-martial artists. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:50:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] cross training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a unique opportunity last Sunday. Most everyone here knows that my training is in Soo Bahk Do, and that I am in the Moo Duk Kwan organization. Most also know I have been crosstraining in jujitsu, and submission grappling for about 15 years. Before the UFC made it popular. I was approached by a coach for the local high school this week. He is a former state champion wrester. He wants to cross train himself. He wants to learn Jujitsu submissions. He and I are going to use the schools wresting facility. He offered to teach me sport wresting in exchange for training in submissions. I have no intentions of teaching wresting in a Moo Duk Kwan class, as I don't teach jujitsu to my Soo Bahk Do students. This for my personal training. This guy is about 6'2" tall and weights 320 pounds. He benches 550 lbs and is a good wrester. I am excited to share some sweat on a mat. QUESTION-- does anyone here any formal training in wrestling. thoughts JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:43:25 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The full system Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/20/2005 2:27:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Bruce Lee probably would have learned ground grappling, but by the same token Bruce Lee is not an authority in Chinese Martial Arts. He was not purposely taught the full Wing Chun system. Eddie Urbistondo Why was this? Who WAS taught the full system? JAck --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:03:50 -0500 From: J R Hilland To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD and Instructor Certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Danny: I have been in organization with both schools of thought on this. One way is the way you describe, (although in hapkido it is ohdan), they are separate and a pre-requisite is the dan rank for the title. The second school of thought is that you are not going to get that title without the rank. In hapkido, then you would just stay a sadan. I like that. Having had been in both types of organizations, I prefer the that they just stay a hapkido sadan. There is no confusion as to who is what. But the dojang size qualifier of 25 students is suspect. What would possibly be the purpose of that? What about the traditionalist who has a day job and teaching is not a income generator? Although your KJN's philosophy is that a master is responsible for the future of the art, I think that is also true of all instructors, regardless of rank. I am also not a big fan of the testing panel method, having had also been part of both schools of thought on that also. If one of my instructors isn't qualified to test someone, he/she would simply never have become an instructors. JRH www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Influences To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Master Terry > > Are you familiar with the "New Soo Bahk Do Basics) > Do Mal Shik > Wak Kuk Kwon Do > Wak Kuk Jang Kwon Do > Wak Kuk Jang Kap Kwan > Yo Shik > Po Wal she > Tago Shik Yes sir, but just barely. > These are techniques introduced by Grandmaster Hwang Kee to the Moo Duk Kwan. > I was introduced in 2000 during a Ko Dan Ja testing (The 8 day masters testing > process) by HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim > > From the information I have found these techniques were translated from the > MYDBTJ (Kwon Bup), and were practiced by the Hwa Rang people. > > Thoughts? My thoughts... historians do not know what unarmed fighting techniques were formally practiced by the HwaRang warriors. I believe the time period of the HwaRang warrior predates the Muye by some 500+ years. So I doubt we can seriously make the claim that the HwaRang practiced the exact Chinese chuan'fa/kempo/kwonbup techniques documented in the Muye. But the HwaRang -were- apparently taught Chinese military arts, so it is possible, if not probable. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:38:21 -0500 From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: cross training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heya JC. I wrestled in high school, coached by one of the state referees. Absolutely loved it. If he is that good, you'll learn some great body awareness, and some excellent takedown techniques. Wrestling matwork has a different approach than many other ground arts, because it is competition based. When a wrestler hits the mat, his automatic reaction is to roll to his stomach, get off his back. I learned the hard way that was a bad idea the first time I grappled in a non-wrestling competition I basically had to unteach myself the "rules" of wrestling, like hammerlocks only go this far, etc. Should be a good ride. Nathan On 4/20/05, Gladewater SooBahkDo wrote: > I had a unique opportunity last Sunday. Most everyone here knows that my > training is in Soo Bahk Do, and that I am in the Moo Duk Kwan organization. > Most also know I have been crosstraining in jujitsu, and submission grappling > for about 15 years. Before the UFC made it popular. > > I was approached by a coach for the local high school this week. He is a > former state champion wrester. He wants to cross train himself. He wants to > learn Jujitsu submissions. He and I are going to use the schools wresting > facility. He offered to teach me sport wresting in exchange for training in > submissions. > > I have no intentions of teaching wresting in a Moo Duk Kwan class, as I don't > teach jujitsu to my Soo Bahk Do students. This for my personal training. > > This guy is about 6'2" tall and weights 320 pounds. He benches 550 lbs and is > a good wrester. I am excited to share some sweat on a mat. > > QUESTION-- does anyone here any formal training in wrestling. > > thoughts > > JC > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "kevin_janisse" To: Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:47:13 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re; Contribution based Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC, Having strict material and rank requirements is also true in Kong Shin Bup HapKiDo and Kuk Sool HapKiDo. There is a continual amount of learing and perfecting put into each dahn requirement and of course the testing only gets longer. Things are looked at in a different way due to the effect of age and when someone starts testing for promotion above 5th dahn this should be an issue. I can only imagine what it will be like to test for 7th or 8th dahn. I suppose I can look forward to perfecting my cane techniques by then..LOL. Sincerely, Kevin M. Janisse No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:53:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Kevin: ".....I respect your research and all, but I kinda compare history and philosophy of the way martial arts should be and the way it went in the bible. Of course people will struggle with EGO and Greed and all the other things that challenge us on a day to day basis. But that doesnt mean that it should be used as a model for today's practice...." Excuse me, but will you kindly tell me what this exchange has been about, then? People on this Net purport to practice Korean Martial Arts. Isn't that what this forum is dedicated to? And one can reasonably expect that there is some quality or another about the nature of martial traditions from Korea that people here are enamoured with that they do not find with martial traditions in other cultures. So far the ONLY uniform quality that seems to consistently attract a large response is when people start playing the "accountability game". On those occasions the identified personality is roasted for doing something that others do but simply have not been caught at yet. The arguement proceeds as people strain to prove that Mr. X has done "bad" while there is a "very good reason" that what Mssrs A, D, G, H and P have done, while appearing the same is actually VERY different and all to the good. Is this what draws people here and causes them to report that they follow Korean Martial Arts? Is it that the Korean Martial Arts contain more Wiggleroom for shaping things into whatever a given person wants those arts and traditions to be? Maybe thats what makes what I do so threatening, yes? After all the more we pin things down the more people will find that Korean traditions are not some historic "Swiss Army knife" with which one can carve out whatever story a person cares to have. I guess I am wondering why you bothered to ask after the information I furnished? Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:54:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, Ray. If you are looking for solid documentation all the way back to the Three Kingdoms Period you already know that the Sam Kuk Yusa and Sam Kuk Sagi were written after the Yuan Dynasty. As far as documentation this is about as far back as I will go with any confidence. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: cross training To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I wrestled in high school, coached by one of the state referees. > Absolutely loved it. If he is that good, you'll learn some great body > awareness, and some excellent takedown techniques. There is a very good new pro wrestling league on cable TV now, Real Pro Wrestling (see www.realprowrestling.com). Not your Hulk Hogan style of pro-wrestling, real wrestling. Check it out. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:43:00 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Authentic Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/20/2005 2:27:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: The only thing I asked you to keep off the boards is your insults. GM Lim,s tapes are available for those that want them to learn the orthodox Hapkido of DJN Choi. As far as recognition, what about that do you not understand? Chung Suk Guhapdo is recognized as a distinct Korean style of swordsmanship nothing more nothing less. If you would like to learn more about it feel free to visit me in NH. I was a little put off with the tone of those comments also. Step on the Mat and train with the 9th Dan and feel his mastery before you make judgements. GM Lim is the real deal. Who are you too judge? --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:02:01 -0400 From: Choe's Hap Ki Do of Mt. Vernon To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Historical References Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a chime in from a lurker: 'History is written by the winners.' Not sure who said that, but... the point being that not all historical records are accurate, nor are all histories accurately recorded. The winners tend to write their own versions of what happened, while the losers' versions are often lost. Does this apply here? Maybe, maybe not. After all, its just a chime in! ;-) Carry on. Respectfully, Bong Soo --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude/F-Prot AV] --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 04:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyuk Song Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Karate Instructor Accused of Molestation Hyuk Song Reported By: Valerie Hoff Web Editor: Manav Tanneeru Last Modified: 4/20/2005 10:50:26 PM A Cobb County karate instructor is facing molestation charges. Police arrested 28-year-old Hyuk Song Tuesday for allegedly molesting a female student three years ago. That student is now 12-years-old. Song is charged with aggravated sexual battery, child molestation, and enticing a minor for indecent purposes. He is being held in the Cobb County Jail without bond. The alleged incident happened at the WTKD Song Martial Arts Studio on Sandy Plains Road, but was not reported until recently. Police say Song faces similar charges in Florida stemming from an incident seven years ago. “To be honest with you, I don’t believe,” said Tom Simmons, whose son takes classes at Song’s studio. “Mr. Song is the most honorable person I know. [He is] an excellent instructor, a good spiritual leader to the kids, and just a world-class person.” The instructor and his father also operate karate studios in Alpharetta and Doraville. Anyone with information is being asked to call Cobb County police at (770) 801-3470. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest