Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:22:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #178 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Mr. Belfanz and Mr. Mchie on technique (George Peters) 2. RE: Sip Soo Hyung (Ken Nessworthy) 3. nkmaa seminar (sidekicks) 4. RE: Dog meat's new tale (Master Mark Seidel) 5. JC (Frank Clay) 6. chubby takes a hit (Tkdsid@aol.com) 7. Re: Retention (James E. McHie Jr.) 8. Re: Re: Hapkido History (question for Bruce) (Ray) 9. North American Tang Soo Do Federation Master's Clinic (Budo) 10. Ruining an art (Rudy Timmerman) 11. inconvenient (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 12. 2005 Senior Judo Nationals ages 17-99 (kikbut@joimail.com) 13. Re: chubby takes a hit (jakskru) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:04:18 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Belfanz and Mr. Mchie on technique Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sirs, I have read your posts and shall attempt to answer you as clearly as possible. I shall make comment to Mr. Mchie first: This gentleman asks about "useles techniques, etc. First and foremost- there is no such thing as a "useless technique" in the system I study. There HAVE been techniques that I have been either not proficient enough of a practictioner to execute properly, or was not far enough along in training to recognise the value of said technique. There have been times when I swore to myself and others that "I might learn this as part of the required material, but I will never use it, or reccomend it", and when the time was right, and the planets were in line and George was ready for an epiphany, I discovered either the correct body movement to employ said technique, or recognised the uses for it or both. All things take a certain level of mental and physical readiness. Mr. Belfanz: Teaching DOES change over time, and thank goodness! My instructor was E-Dan when I started in TSD and now he is O-Dan. Could you imagine my (and his) discomfiture were he not able to execute techniques more correctly now. If an eighth dan teaches a gup level a technique, one sees a gup level technique, period. If I teach a Cho-Dan, I see a Cho-Dan technique and understanding of same. We all have to evolve, however the "style" is not mine, it the evolution of me attempting to perfect my technique,emulating my KJN. These things are not always evident to the practictioner, as I have found out for myself in given situations. If you have ever FELT that perfect low block, and then worked months to feel it again, you know what I mean, and then have also experienced the years it takes to feel this every time,then only to find out some subtle nuance to work on to perfect it even more. Some things I feel students need to find out for themselves in training and learning techniques. Some things, especially where their health and well being are concerned, I relay information as I learn it.For instance, if I see a student stomping in a Kee Mah form and not using the blade of his/her foot, I tell them. The injuries incurred from this have made people quit due to severe heel pain, and I hate to lose students. The treatment hurts too, I know firsthand. Anyway, do I teach tomorrow like I teach today? I hope not, as I have worked hard to perfect things for tomorrow. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Ken Nessworthy" To: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:38:29 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sip Soo Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank's Danny much appreciate it my friend, you can do it off-line if you so wish. Ken --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "sidekicks" To: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:03:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] nkmaa seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not sure if I am doing this right or not but here goes (this is my first post, I am officially out of lurker mode): myself and one of my students drove 17 hours to Brainerd Minnesota to attend Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman's seminar hosted by Dewitt's Martial arts. what a blast. i have never enjoyed pain so much in my life.it is a real treat seeing someone of his skill and ability apply a technique, and it is even more of a treat having him perform them on you. if you have never experienced one of his seminars, jump at the next opportunity. as some of our grandmasters get up in age, their time left with us to help train and teach is getting shorter and shorter. dont let all that experience and wisdom pass you by.Grandmaster Rudy, Grandmaster JR West and all the other TRUE grandmasters of the arts, they are not getting any younger. they have a lot of experience in their minds and bodies to pass on to us, so if you get the chance, train with them before it is too late!!! when you take a technique that you think you have down pretty well, they can look at it, make one small suggestion, then you are able to now add a whole new element of pain, that is knowledge. i would like to thank Master Garrett Dewitt and his group for hosting the seminar, and once again, Grandmaster Timmerman, for sharing his knowledge with us. thank you sir!!! respectfully, Dusty, Sabum --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Dog meat's new tale Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:11:53 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What a disgusting but interesting article Ray, especially first thing in the morning. When I was in Korea, the only thing I noticed about this subject was the complete absence of any sight of dogs anywhere. When dining my interpreter was asked by me what kind of ribs were we eating, he translated to my host, and they all laughed and then started barking. I was not amused. Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 7:25 PM To: The_Dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Dog meat's new tale Dog meat's new tale CBC News April 25, 2005 Yoav Cerralbo The first thing that struck me walking through Moran Market in southern Seoul was how they kept animals for the slaughter. Yellow-coloured dogs were lying side-by-side without any room to move or stretch. Dogs, chickens, goats, turkeys and ducks where lined up in cages, ready for the next shopper searching for fresh meat. The smells were varied - on the one side it smelled like Old MacDonald's farm, while on the other side it smelled like barbecued meat. I didn't witness any active cruelty being inflicted on the animals. The shopkeepers had obviously had bad experiences with foreigners and it was made clear to me that I was not welcome. The story is that dogs are hung from the bars of their cages and when nearly dead are taken down to have their fur blowtorched off - none of which I've seen. While I was taking pictures, a butcher came running toward me waving a blade about the size of my forearm yelling for me to stop and leave. Luckily, I spoke enough Korean to calm him down and then offered him a smoke to smooth things over. Boshin-tang (dog meat soup) served with rice and vegetables. On the other side of the market where it smells like a tailgate party, a foreigner was eating boshin-tang (body preserving stew), or dog meat soup. "How is the soup?" I asked. "The texture is almost like mutton. It has a fatty taste and is very chewy. I eat it about once a week," said the foreigner. The brutality of dogs being slaughtered is a tale many times told, but recently, the age-old dispute over one of South Korea's traditional dishes has resurfaced after a government plan to impose strict regulations on the processing and selling of dog meat. The measures would prohibit any brutal slaughter of dogs and also sets hygiene guidelines on the processing and sale of gae gogi (dog meat). The new measures brought an immediate response from animal rights activists and people who oppose the practice. They say that the government's plan won't bring the trade under control but instead will officially legalize the centuries-old practice. Butcher preparing duck along side dog meat. "Setting up these standards will only legalize this cruel practice," said the chairwoman of the Korean Animal Protection Society, Kum Sun-nam. "This will not do the animals any favour. Dog-meat butchers will feel vindicated. There is also a fear that more people will eat dog now that there are higher hygiene laws." "This is just the government's way to control animal groups," added Kum. The major complaint from KAPS and other animal rights groups is the brutal methods by which many dogs are killed in South Korea. Dog-meat lovers believe that by beating, strangling or boiling live dogs they will give the meat a better taste and increase its medicinal value - "a value that has not been proven by medical science," said Kum. Proponents of the age-old dish see it differently. They argue that dog food has many medicinal values such as beefing up men's virility and improving women's skin. "Anyone can tell you that eating dog meat is very healthy," said Park Gye-dong while enjoying a bowl of boshin-tang with his friends, "The Chinese wrote about its healing powers 3,000 years ago in their medical texts, and even now doctors tell patients who are recuperating from operations to eat dog meat in order to recover quickly. I would eat it more often but it's a little expensive." Sitting with Park was Kim Dong-soo who added, "Sometimes we become a little obsessed with the feelings of Westerners who try to lecture us on values and regard others as barbarians. Who are they to lecture us? We have 5,000 years of history, and dog eating is part of our culture." A tradition that Kum hopes will die out soon before a negative lesson is passed on to Korean children, who see dogs as pets and not a food source. "If children think that eating pets is OK, who knows what kind of cruel things they will do to animals," said Kum. "It also harms the younger generation because the world sees Koreans with a tainted image. This is not a good tradition to pass on to our children." But Dr. Yong-Geun Ann, who teaches in the food nutrition department at Chungcheong College and has written books on the subject, believes that Koreans should not feel ashamed because of the misguided views of others. "The resumption of the controversy over the edibility of dog meat is due to the federal government's tepid attitude. The government should allow the slaughter and consumption of dog by law. Regrettably, the federal government hasn't made any decision on it up to now. "It's due to the fact that the government is being pulled in opposing directions, with the animal rights activists on one side and the dog meat consumers on the other," said Ann who is also known as Dr. Dogmeat. The Korean government has been under severe criticism at home and abroad for disregarding what dogs have been subjected to before they are slaughtered. Since the current laws on animal protection and slaughtering don't include dogs as animals fit for human consumption, the processing of dog meat has gone underground with no official guidelines to guarantee hygiene and animal welfare. With about 6,000 restaurants in Korea and 10 per cent of the population eating any of the 350 different dog-meat dishes, the legal position doesn't matter - the industry is thriving without any serious attempt at control. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:17:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] JC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC, You said : It simply means they earned Cho Dan at an earlier date. I know you re not that naïve. The custom in martial arts is that the senir is always the senior. Take for example CMA where there are no ranks. If I stopped training right now, I am still Xihing to my younger brothers. I will always be because I was there first. The system was based on family structure. There are those who followed blatant nepotism, in this case, the ruling family of the MDK. And once again I ask you... what would happen in the professional world? A law suit or two? So, professionalism is good enough for the office but not for a martial arts organization? And you don't see a problem with that? Frank --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:19:46 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] chubby takes a hit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Colleagues, Last night I won a victory in Small Claims Court for a fee paid for a dan certificate that was never delivered from one of Hack's students. That teacher, Gregory Glover of Staten Island, offered a weak defense and a court room of over 200 people heard in detail all that I have experienced and could document about Hack. This is a beginning and it shows to all that have been afflicted by the wannabee that there is justice. I will receive my fee in 10 days. Just a happy post script...the judge and his grandson both practice taekwondo!!!!!!!!!! Sid R. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:37:15 -0500 From: "James E. McHie Jr." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Retention Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: As you, and others who have met me, are aware, I am but a guppy in the pond of martial arts--if that. Of the youngest of guppies. My first instructor just called what he did Hansen's School of Self Defense, a mix of hand-to-hand Ninjutsu (Yondan, teaching certificate under Hatsumi) and Hapkido (5th Degree). Since I have moved, I have done a little tiny bit or work with Dakin Burdick and have since January started taking Brazilian JiuJutsu under a Caique-affiliated school. My perception of some of your greatest objections is that people are parring off non-Hapkido material as Hapkido. No worries there, I know what my background is--a floater. I like it here on this list because I like Hapkido, and I like the people. In working with Dakin, it has become clear that either I did not have sufficient time under my former instructor to learn how to make certain things work, or that his technical ability may have been limited in certain areas. It's ok, I learned a lot from him and now I'm somewhere else trying to find good people to learn from. So I double-check my cup, make sure it is empty, and keep my mind open for the things I don't know. I'm not always great at this, and get frustrated, but we all do at times, yes? Breathe deep, close your eyes, count to five, and start again. Getting back to your point, the segment of what I posted that you quoted has never happened to me, because I am not a teacher. I may never be . . . I got a very late start and in any event I'll probably be unlikely to hang any fancy certificates on my wall. I'm just looking for good instructors, in whatever form they appear. So I am a student, learning from teachers, and I would like to hear how different teachers have grappled with this issue. Maybe it's never happened to anyone here, maybe everyone's concern is strictly art, but I assume from the various discussions you've had here you would acknowledge the various purposes for which people pursue Hapkido. I have heard instructors and teachers say "this doesn't work for me", so I know like some have said already that some instructors will pass along material they can't get to work, or work efficiently, for whatever reason, right? I was just wondering if there becomes a point where you (i.e. anyone) would deviate from what you were taught. Maybe some instructors who differentiate between historical art and practical self defense approach certain techniques from two different perspectives. I'm not saying *you* do, I'm just asking. So go easy on the guppy, eh? Jim --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido History (question for Bruce) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Just curious, and you don't have to answer is you don't want to. > > How did you end up practicing a KMA? > > I was young, intrigued (like so many) by MA movies. > Did judo for 6 months or so, then saw an ad in the paper promoting > hapkido as being the complete martial art. > And switched. > At that time (I was 13 or something) I hardly knew where Korea was. Good question from Klaas that was perhaps overlooked... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Budo" To: Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:32:11 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] North American Tang Soo Do Federation Master's Clinic Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For Immediate Submission The North American Tang Soo Do Federation Headquartered in Suwanee, Georgia (USA) will be holding it's 2nd Annual Gathering of International Masters on May 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, 2005. Invited guests and members will experience 3 days of world class seminars, clinics, and workshops taught by some of the worlds leading Masters in traditional and progressive Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, Hapkido, Yoshukai, and Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Learning elements covered will include but are not limited to: The Art of Shil Ki or practical application, Intense or "Real Deal" self-defense, Jujitsu, Hapkido, Kumdo, Bong Sul, Dan Gum Do, Tai Chi Chuan, Chi Gong, Neh Gong, Weh Gong, and Shim Gong. There will also be state of the art seminars on personal and professional development using the MAST (Martial Arts Success Training) system. If you are interested in learning more about the North American Tang Soo Do Federation or learning more about this year's symposium, contact the NATSDF via their website at www.tangsoopro.com. Don't miss this chance of a lifetime to train under some of the world's greatest Masters. Clinic Instructors Include: Chief Master Stephen G. Washington, Chil Dan (Asia Pacific Tang Soo Do Fed) Head Master J. John St. James, Yuk Dan (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) Head Master Warren Adams, Yuk Dan (U.S. Jung Do Kwan Assoc) Head Master James Allison, Chil Dan (International Sun Moo Kwan Hapkido Fed) International Master Phillip J. Bartolacci, Chil Dan candidate (tested) and Board Member (U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Fed) Head Master Charles J. Whitten, Yuk Dan (Illini Tang Soo Do Assoc) Senior Master Greg Hall, Oh Dan (North American TKD Moo Duk Kwan Fed) Senior Master Carole Coker, Oh Dan (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) Senior Master Kevin T. Case, Oh Dan (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) Master Stacy Busby, Sah Dan (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) Master Carrell Smith, Sah Dan (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) Sensei Morris Coker, Yoshukai 5th Degree & Sah Dan Master's Candidate (North American Tang Soo Do Fed) --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:16:44 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ruining an art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jim writes: > In other words, is there *any* point at which you would consider > dropping, or adding, a technique to your curriculum based on your > perception of its efficiency? Perhaps you have seen many different > types of students try to learn it without success in efficiency. > Would you take the issue up with your own instructor? How tight is > your teacher about the variances that appear in your learning to your > teaching (because that occurs 100% of the time, you cannot avoid it)? Hello Jim: The problem with dropping techniques, as I see it, is this: "where do we stop?". Being a big man, there are a lot of techniques that do NOT work for me. Had I dropped every one that did not work for me, I would not have been able to teach the material to those for whom it WILL work. Just imagine, if I had a hundred or so techniques that do not work for me, another Instructor has another fifty or so (and on and on), our curriculum soon would be depleted to the point of being useless to all but a few. I see no problem whatsoever teaching material that I absolutely hate for myself, because I have found a simple solution to this. I treat the material I have been passed as a whole unit... not pieces that can be discarded at a whim. The art is not just about fighting and/or self-defense, it also has a wonderful cultural part that makes it even more appetizing to many practitioners. The art we know has many facets, and in order to continue to whet the appetite of ALL, we should never disregard some applications because they do not fit SOME. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:01:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] inconvenient Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray It did change along the way, not because it was inconvenient, but because it was logistically impossible. JC --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "kikbut@joimail.com" To: "Mark Jovich" ,the_dojang@martialartsresource.net,tkdgirl1977@hotma il.com,kickboxer1965@msn.com,buckchaser3@aol.com,paschalsys@charter.ne t,phelpsfam@charter.net,toby.layman@navy.mil,Tannaj2@aol.com,shellizz@ yahoo.com,school@FBCSuffolk.org,rosetter@ichf.com,dpcreek@exis.net,inf o@vpuma.com,worrell94@earthlink.net,vpuma@vpuma.com,oneillohana@netzer o.com,NAVGAC@aol.com,morganmk@juno.com,MikeAllenAKarate@aol.com,cudgel 123@yahoo.com,Mewiskykid3@aol.com,meanh22@yahoo.com ,Rosalio.Martinez@LACKLAND.AF.MIL,larrylis@earthlink.net,grooveman0717 @yahoo.com,Kenlynwill@aol.com,kelvinreynolds@comcast.net,jcorbett@adva ntisgva.com,selfdefense@cox.net,JSG930@aol.com,baeplex@verizon.net,jas on.norman@suffolknewsherald.com,Jjjam5@aol.com,jhorn@dynalectric-dc.co m,Jflint0428@aol.com,mgt@ontheline.com,GrantsMAIA@aol.com,etkeller1@ve rizon.net,ichfhapkido@hotmail.com,dpoole1953@yahoo.com,Dixon@joimail.c om,_Richard@joimail.com,cfand3boyz@msn.com,etmfilms@hotmail.com,crohen 9@aol.com ,cpark7@gmu.edu,cjpowell@exis.net,BradHikikn@cs.com,B3XMOM@msn.com,coo perco@rcn.com,arussell@ymcashr.org Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:59:16 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] 2005 Senior Judo Nationals ages 17-99 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The link below is from last weeks Judo Nationals at Va Beach. http://vatkd.com/05_info/05_judo_nationals/05_judo_nationals.htm The photo attached is the oldest competitors...the young fellow in white is 74! So the next time some one tells you they are tooo ollldddd to practice MA, print this photo and keep in your wallet or handbag and show them! Train Hard and cya in the ring... Wayne Spencer Spencer's Warrior Club http://www.vatkd.com/spencer.html Suffolk, Va [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/pjpeg which had a name of 05_r3_10.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] chubby takes a hit Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:53:48 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net congrats...love it when a scheister gets his just deserts ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:19 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] chubby takes a hit > Dear Colleagues, > > > Last night I won a victory in Small Claims Court for a fee paid for a > dan certificate that was never delivered from one of Hack's students. That > teacher, Gregory Glover of Staten Island, offered a weak defense and a court > room of over 200 people heard in detail all that I have experienced and could > document about Hack. This is a beginning and it shows to all that have been > afflicted by the wannabee that there is justice. I will receive my fee in 10 > days. Just a happy post script...the judge and his grandson both practice > taekwondo!!!!!!!!!! > > Sid R. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest