Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:53:12 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #187 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Thomas Gordon) 2. RE:What is a black belt? (Nick A. McKenna) 3. What is a black belt? (Tkdsid@aol.com) 4. What is a black belt? (Timmy Sr. Kearney) 5. Re: N Korea (Jesse Segovia) 6. Re. Cheerleading for Kim Jong Il??? (Jesse Segovia) 7. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Rick Clark) 8. Re: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Edward Peters, III) 9. Rank (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 10. What is a Black Belt (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. RE: Rank (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:30:20 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For us, we teach that 1st degree black belt means they are trainable just like a BS/BA degree means you have the training to learn (real world learn) the profession of your choosing. Outside of that, to me, earning a black belt means a person shows discipline and perseverance. Typically, I find black belt holders to be honest and good natured. Sure, there's a few bad apples out there but that's true in anything. Earning my black belt changed almost everything about me. I found I was calmer and very slow to get angry. Great question! Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 13:04:18 +0100 From: "Nick A. McKenna" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:What is a black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >We are sending some of our students to test for their first and second dans >in >a short while. So, I thought I'd put out the question of "What is a black >belt?" and see what you all thought . I've been following the digest for >quite >a while now, and really enjoy everyone's inputs. They have certianly been >useful! Sandy Hi I think that it is a personal view for everyone. For me, a black belt is someone who has got the basics of the art and more importantly, the tools to enable them to learn the art at a deeper level. This is not some wishy-washy statement! By a deeper level, I mean they have the tools to interpret forms into combat techniques themselves. Also, they have the capability to adopt / create their own personal set of combat techniques depending on their individual attributes. Technical detail aside, a black belt is someone who has made a tangible commitment to their instructor and their fellow students. They undertake to pass their knowledge on to others and they promise to have the mindset and approach to martial arts that their instructor requires. I also believe that a black belt is someone who has overcome personal difficulty and adversity in their martial art and life. A black belt it not: 1) Someone who kicks really high and punches really hard 2) An omniscient being above mortal coloured belts 3) Someone who no longer has to train hard I can feel that I am about to go on forever, so I'll stop there. You know, this would be a great topic for a website article... Nick. http://www.johnsonskarate.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:44:37 -0400 From: Tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] What is a black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welllllll....the easy part first. A black belt is a student, IMHO at lest 13 years old, that has learned all forms, kicks, self defense, breaks and sparring to the extent that it is teachable to others. Second, a black belt is a student that meditates regularly and demonstrates daily the Code of the Hwa Rang Do. Further, a black belt is someone that fully understands that the black belt symbolizes a beginning! Sid --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Timmy Sr. Kearney" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:04:07 -0300 Subject: [The_Dojang] What is a black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very bluntly put,being a black belt,is a frame of mind. Master Tim Kearney --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:47:07 -0400 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: N Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Bob Banham" wrote: >Which foreigners would these be then? I don't think any foreigners have been >allowed to wander around N. Korea in the past 50 years. If you know any >personally I would love to talk to them. > > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0122/korea.doctor.html >Also, didn't quite understand what you meant by 'equivocate'. In my >understanding of the English language equivocate means to be evasive. > > Sorry, that should've been 'equate.' >Apart from that, your post just reiterates exactly what I already said, either >on DD or on mywebsite. > > Great. I didn't realize you were vehemently anti-North Korea and would do nothing to help its government or portray a sympathetic face to the world. Jesse --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:08:52 -0400 From: Jesse Segovia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re. Cheerleading for Kim Jong Il??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Bob Banham" wrote: >Well said Bruce. Thank you for furnishing facts it is obvious a lot of >subscribers are completely unaware of. It is such a shame that some people wil >believe their government implicitly rather than finding out the truth. > > What do we say about those who assume? My wife is Korean. I speak Korean fairly well and have spent over four years working and living in South Korea, not in Hotels and tour groups, but in Korean homes and Korean companies. My inlaws came down from North Korea during the war and still have relatives there. Odd that you claim to have found out the truth and you don't even know the very well known story of Dr. Norbert Vollertsen - here's another few links to help you: http://www.iavaan.org/Archives/2002/March%202002/North_Korea_WORLDMAG.htm http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=161144 http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/16/60minutes/main563623.shtml >We didn't get to talk to, or even get close to ordinary people. > Hmmm. If this is the case how comfortable do you feel lecturing me and others about what's really going on there? Jesse --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 08:40:09 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Thomas, > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > > For us, we teach that 1st degree black belt means they are > trainable just like a BS/BA degree means you have the > training to learn (real world learn) the profession of your > choosing. Clearly getting to black belt means different things to many different people. But I would like to point out that the meaning of a black belt can and has changed over time. Back in the 60's a 1st dan was a BIG deal and you were considered to be quite the expert. I should guess that back around 1945 a 1st or 2nd dan was considered a grand master because there were a few of them that started their own Kwan. You are quite right that as a 1st dan an individual is trainable, but you equate them at a BS/BA level, for me that's a bit high. I would think that its more like a primary school grade. For years I have been told that you just start to learn at 1st dan and the longer I have been in the martial arts the more I understand that concept. For the most part we think of training the physical skills to the point where a person is a 1st dan. But I believe we should take a look at another trait that is trained - the ability to see what is being taught. White belts see gross movements. At 1st dan you can spot more refined movements of your instructors, then after about 30 or 40 years you really begin to notice subtle movements found in technique. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:05:43 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is the belt that comes after red. They real question is what is a green belt? Seriously, the real answer is a "well qualified beginner". In reality it is not much more than a time marker. That's why I think we should get away from 1 dan, 2nd Dan, 3rd Dan stuff and each year replace your belt with a sequentially higher number. i.e. a black belt with a 1 on it for me. A black belt with a 25 on it for others. That was you know just how long someone has been kicking around. (pun intended) Edward Richard Tomlinson wrote: >We are sending some of our students to test for their first and second dans in >a short while. So, I thought I'd put out the question of "What is a black >belt?" and see what you all thought . I've been following the digest for quite >a while now, and really enjoy everyone's inputs. They have certianly been >useful! sandy >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:23:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Nguyen This kind of thing happens all the time. It is the source of much litigation in the Moo Duk Kwan. Unfortunately, in seems to happen more often in TKD. I believe it is because the TKD organizations (although not all of them) seem to be more commercialized. The students seem to want there peace of the pie, or want to be in control. It does happen in more traditional schools, but is seems to happen more because of disagreement, or fallout between student and instructor, or student and organization. IMHO if the person teaching the school is not legitimately who and what they say they are, they should be exposed. They are only hurting the martial arts community. If an individual wants to teach a school of their own, I have not problem with that, however they should either follow the guidelines set by their instructor and or the organization in which they belong, or at the least be honest about their rank and ability to teach. If this were my student. I would shut him down. Simply walk in on class night, and expose him to all the students and parents. I would also call to find out who issued him a 5th dan certificate and expose them too. If they then decide to continue they at least know whom they are dealing with. We all have the American right to run a school We also have the obligation to be honest about our achievements Standing up for what is right JC --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 09:50:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] What is a Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sandy I read "What is a black belt" A dan ran is different from one organization to another. I is obvious that a dan ranking student should have a certain level of proficiency both in physical and mental ability. The question is who sets the standard and what is it. I have seen people take 5 to 7 years of uninterrupted serious hardcore training to achieve a dan rank and I have seen people get a black belt though the mail with little or no training at all. Most of my student train about 5 years before being eligible for a cho dan test. There is a school near me turning out dans every two years. Both students are legitimately black belts if they met the requirements of there instructor and organization, but are they at the same level--- NO!. It takes a certain amount of time and a certain type of training to achieve certain types of goals. First we have to determine what are those goals. In my school the organization (Moo Duk Kwan) sets a minimum standard for the students. I have set that goal higher, than the minimum standard. For a person to reach dan in my school. They must have the ability to lead a senior class of students, not just children but the most gung-ho of the adults. They must be able to accurately explain they history of the art, and give detailed explanations of the mechanics of how physics applies to each technique. They must be able to demonstrate the technique they are teaching with a reasonable level of skill. They must be of sound moral character. Testing begins with 4 two thousand word essays about History, Hyungs and there reason for what in means to be a dan. The physical testing is an 8 hour test of every thing they have learned since they began training. They also have an oral exam about the organization, history, terminology, etc. A written exam is also given. I want to see a a dan test a student proficient in physical technique, knowledgeable about the art they study, a leader, and a moral person training for the right reasons. The question remains who sets the standard for your students. If that students meets that standard then they are a dan with you and your school or organization. JC --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:52:30 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rank To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Nr, Gladwater, > From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:GladewaterSooBahkDo@msn.com] > > If this were my student. I would shut him down. Simply walk > in on class night, and expose him to all the students and > parents. This kind of thing used to happen back in the 60's with the dojo wars. People would go into dojo/dochang with weapons and it even went to the extent where dojo were blown up. So - personally I would not walk in on someone and confront them in their own property. Things could turn bad and then the person that did the confrontation becomes the aggressor and depending on what occurs it could turn criminal. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest