Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 07:11:14 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #189 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: North Korea (Manuel Maldonado) 2. What is a Black Belt? (Lois Knorr) 3. RE: What is a Black Belt? (Manuel Maldonado) 4. yudanja (JR Hilland) 5. Cheerleading etc (Bob Banham) 6. RE: What's a Black Belt (kikbut@joimail.com) 7. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Thomas Gordon) 8. Re: The Black Belt (ISA Headquarters) 9. USKMAF Crew (Braeswood Martial Arts) 10. North Korea (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 11. North Korea (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 12. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Rick Clark) 13. Re: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Craig Zeigler) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:48:44 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: North Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I served in the U.S.ARMY in Korea in 1982-1983 and again in 1984- 1987. In 1982-83 I was at Camp Graves 1/9th Inf. I remember a certain PVT shooting a lock off a gate and defecting into North Korea... My C/O wanted to go get him I was scared out of my wits needless to say. I often wonder whatever happened to him or whatever was his name I seem to have forgotten. The "North" would send propaganda flyers over of this man (PVT) in Bed with several women ect. I heard a rumor that he was brought down to the DMZ and killed dose anyone know of this? Any info would help thank you. Manuel Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 23:50:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] What is a Black Belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a topic close to my heart -- I am testing for first dan in three days! Thank you to all the dojang digest posters for their questions and comments. You have all helped me on my martial arts journey. Lois --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Manuel Maldonado" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:03:47 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: What is a Black Belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net a piece of black cloth that keeps your ott (Shirt) Closed... A true Black Belter is one who adheres to the principles of his/her art and applies it in their everyday life. I earned my 1st Dan in 1981 and have over the years grown both in life and in my art. I have seen many changes in Tae Kwon-Do much I dont like and much I do.. But Im rolling with the punches.. To this day I have both ITF and Kukkiwon Certification I also have trained in Korea and I honor all the friendships I have made in my 30 + years in the Arts.. Tae Kwon  Master Maldonado --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "JR Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:35:34 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] yudanja Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A yudanja is many things at many levels. I guess I am not a 6th dan by the definition below as I NEVER practice forms and seldom sparring (not a pretty site in hapkido). Not into breaking things that are not human and moving either. Being a hapkidoin, we seldom do anything that is not self defense practiced through application. So in the definition below, I guess my belt does not count. But there are many levels of yudanja, from the leaders of our arts who are the time honored elder 8th and 9th dan, the 'real' deal, to simple instructors as myself, down to my chodan, who by definition are learning to be a beginner dan, when they get it down, they are ready for idan. I am really not sure about the hwawang code as so little is known about them historically. In addition, I won't put one (a BB) on any younger than 15. <<>>> My brother sent me these about a decade ago, and I am sure they came from another ki art, but I am unable to quote the source unfortunately, but I will copy and paste them from my website for your entertainment, as it was very true for me, it states: Hapkido yudanja training guidelines - To train for chodan: You are training to become a beginner, no longer just a guest in the dojang, but a student with very real responsibilities. One must study the basic technical form and theories of basic motion until the correct movement is automatic and feels natural. To train for idan: The power of movement must be emphasized and developed. The functional reality of technique must be explored and an understanding developed of what really works and why. To train for samdan: The student must develop an understanding of ki and begin to break out of technique. To train for sadan: The student must develop an understanding of the theories of hapkido and how they relate to technique. The technical form must be deeply refined according to this understanding and the student must seriously begin to develop the art of training others. Personal training is not enough. To train for ohdan: A complete spontaneity of technique must develop which is no longer technique but the principle that underlies technique. There must be at this point, a complete dedication to the art and a great social and spiritual growth. A growth that produces not a narrow local concern for one dojang or one area, but an active concern for all students. Throughout all these years of training, your physical, mental, social and spiritual understanding and power must steadily progress. The spontaneous application of ki must progress. If you stop training on any one of these levels, your hapkido will no longer grow. Just putting in your time has no meaning. The quality and intensity of your training, the discoveries you make each day, these things have meaning. BTW, this also goes along with the idea that a title is awarded with a dan rank as they go hand in hand in technique and art development. Just my thoughts.. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:11:40 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cheerleading etc Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not lecturing Jesse, just reporting a first hand experience. First hand as in from someone who has actually been and met North Koreans in North Korea, rather than acquired all their information from the internet or from third party sources. It's wonderful that you are all furnishing me with all these links that will show me the error of my analysis, but these are from other people at other times. My response is to my wife's visit two weeks ago! I am certainly not justifying the Kims' or their ideals but what I am saying is that injustice, sometimes of a major kind exists everywhere - even in UK and US. We can talk about it, we can debate and analyse it's reason for being and we can protest about it to whoever will listen. The only way to deal with it effectively is to try and change the mindset of the people perpetrating it. This I believe is what Dr.Kimm's intention is. This was his 4th trip in 4 years and already things have changed significantly. Nikki wants to go back and further the process in any way possible. This is surely more proactive that sitting behind a computer screen and listing reasons the regime should be despised. (Or bombing the s..t out of it like in Vietnam and Iraq) Bob --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "kikbut@joimail.com" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 06:24:25 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: What's a Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net BOW! I made 4th Dan last July at the young age of 48....I have been studying various martial arts styles since 1975.... and you know.... I still feel that I am a babe and still only scratching the surface. The more arts I practice the dummer I get. LOL I became a weekend Judo student in Dec of 2003 so I attended the Senior Judo Nationals a few weeks ago in Va Beach, Va. I was just amazed while watching the 70 plus year old judokas sparring. I hope I can still walk and go to the bathroom on my own at that age!!!! Tks all...love your comments, A Student-Wayne Spencer Spencer's Warrior Club http://www.vatkd.com/spencer.html --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 06:44:27 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Rick Clark > >".....You are quite right that as a 1st dan an individual is trainable, but >you equate them at a BS/BA level, for me that's a bit high. I would >think that its more like a primary school grade. For years I have been >told that you just start to learn at 1st dan and the longer I have been >in the martial arts the more I understand that concept....." Master Clark, Thank you for the thought out reply. And, in the most part, I agree with your assessment. Is a black belt equal to a BA/BS? For some, perhaps. For others, maybe like high school or even an elementary school. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:33:13 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here is my link and my take on what a black belt is, or should be (shouldn't be.): http://www.sungjado.org/Information/black_belt1.htm Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 06:47:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USKMAF Crew Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all USKMAF Black Belts who are soon headed to Korea, I wanted to wish you all a safe journey and to remind you to have some fun! I wish I could be there with you but you know I am with you in spirit. Kat --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 08:56:25 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] North Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jesse Segovia wrote about Bob Banham: > I didn't realize you were vehemently anti-North Korea and would do nothing to help its government or portray a sympathetic face to the world. Actually, I feel the same way as Bob on this one. Why on earth would we want to portray North Korea in a sympathetic way? I think we learned enough about tyranny in the Twentieth century to avoid catering to despots in the Twenty-First. In this world, there ARE bad guys, and we should be able to recognize them. If we can't prevent governments like the DPRK from committing crimes against humanity, we should at least prevent them from white-washing their crimes. I mean, enjoy a trip to the Keumgang mountains (who wouldn't?), but don't let that influence you into singing the DPRK's praises. Dakin PS: Did I ever announce my obituary on Hong-Hi Choi in the Manchester Guardian to you folks? It can be found here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,771475,00.html I bring this up because the editor at the Guardian wanted to eliminate the reference to juche because it wasn't mentioned in the Los Angeles Times obituary. I told him to take my name off the piece if he did that, and thank goodness he left most of the stuff in. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:05:35 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] North Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmm. I think I misread Jesse's post. From his response to Bruce, it looks like Jesse does NOT approve of the DPRK policies. Sorry for the confusion! Dakin --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:07:17 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > > > From: Rick Clark > > > >".....You are quite right that as a 1st dan an individual is > trainable, > but > >you equate them at a BS/BA level, for me that's a bit high. I would > >think that its more like a primary school grade. For years > I have been > >told that you just start to learn at 1st dan and the longer > I have been > >in the martial arts the more I understand that concept....." > > > Master Clark, Please - use Rick, I am not really comfortable with the term "master". I have a far way to go before I "master" the moral and personal development side of the martial arts not to mention the physical side - unfortunately there are times I am not such a good role model :-) > > Thank you for the thought out reply. And, in the most part, > I agree with your assessment. Is a black belt equal to a > BA/BS? For some, perhaps. For others, maybe like high school or even an elementary > school. > > Thomas Gordon > Florida I have a different way to look at ranks - I tend to think more in terms of military rank. Years ago Phil Porter pointed out to me that there were 10 ranks in the officer corps: 2nd Lt., 1st Lt., Capt., Maj., Lt. Col., Col., Brig. Gen., Maj. Gen., Lt. Gen., and Gen. What was interesting to me was that you probably would not go into the military as an officer until you were around 21 years old and would probably retire by 65 or possibly sooner. BUT it would take 44 years to go from a "white belt / 2nd Lt." to "10th dan / Gen" in 44 years. At 65 you are still young enough to wage war as a General, yet we tend to have our 10th dan much older. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:49:55 -0400 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick Clark wrote: >Hi Thomas, > > > > >>From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] >> >>For us, we teach that 1st degree black belt means they are >>trainable just like a BS/BA degree means you have the >>training to learn (real world learn) the profession of your >>choosing. >> >> > > >Clearly getting to black belt means different things to many different >people. But I would like to point out that the meaning of a black belt >can and has changed over time. Back in the 60's a 1st dan was a BIG >deal and you were considered to be quite the expert. I should guess >that back around 1945 a 1st or 2nd dan was considered a grand master >because there were a few of them that started their own Kwan. > >You are quite right that as a 1st dan an individual is trainable, but >you equate them at a BS/BA level, for me that's a bit high. I would >think that its more like a primary school grade. For years I have been >told that you just start to learn at 1st dan and the longer I have been >in the martial arts the more I understand that concept. > >For the most part we think of training the physical skills to the point >where a person is a 1st dan. But I believe we should take a look at >another trait that is trained - the ability to see what is being taught. > > >White belts see gross movements. At 1st dan you can spot more refined >movements of your instructors, then after about 30 or 40 years you >really begin to notice subtle movements found in technique. > > >Rick Clark >www.ao-denkou-kai.org >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > The way I was taught is much the same as you are saying here. 1st Dan is just the beginning. The stuff you worked for to achieve that is merely the mechanics. The art begins at 1st Dan. I found once I reached 1st, I started learning everything all over again. There were no more mechanical movements. Everything had to be perfectly fluid without losing any of the emphasis. My first instructors were very good, and I miss them greatly (one passed, the other retired). I will also say that to me, 1st Dan is still a great achievement, and should be a goal for beginning students. It is important not to stop training once you reach that goal. It wasn't until I was in the upper colored ranks that I came to realize that I really didn't know much, but 1st Dan gave me something to work for, and it does earn some respect. Too many black belt factories exist today, and they don't seem to teach that kind of depth. Just my $0.02 Respectfully, Craig --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest