Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:06:14 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #190 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: What' a Black Belt (kevin_janisse@comcast.net) 2. RE: Obituary (C. Bonner) 3. SJN Timmerman Seminar Aug 13th (kevin_janisse@comcast.net) 4. Re: yudanja (Dante) 5. Re: [The_Dojang digest] What is a black belt? (Randy Mertes) 6. Hyung Interpretation (Bruce Sims) 7. RE: Hyung influence in combat (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 8. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 9. WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Todd) 10. NK (Ray) 11. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: kevin_janisse@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 15:01:14 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: What' a Black Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sandy, On my students requirement sheets I have Printed "A Black Belt is a White Belt who did not give up" In a more legal approach I tell them that a Black Belt gives them a license to start learning the Martial Way. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:38:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Obituary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net  Dakin,  Good obituary!  As a side note, Juche is a completely different form from Kodang, Not just a name change. Personally, i don't much care for the Juche hyung, and not because of it's meaning ether. Maybe it's because i'm old and rickity ;-). Naw, i didn't like it in the 80's ether. Clint >PS:  Did I ever announce my obituary on Hong-Hi Choi in the Manchester >Guardian to you folks?  It can be found here: > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,771475,00.html > >I bring this up because the editor at the Guardian wanted to eliminate >the reference to juche because it wasn't mentioned in the Los Angeles >Times obituary.  I told him to take my name off the piece if he did >that, and thank goodness he left most of the stuff in. > >-- __--__-- > --__--__-- Message: 3 From: kevin_janisse@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 15:40:12 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] SJN Timmerman Seminar Aug 13th Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reserve this date on your calender for the NKMAA Westcoast HapKiDo Seminar with Grandmaster Rudy Timmerman on August 13th in Portland, Oregon. Hope to see you this year Ray. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 10:07:21 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: Dante To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] yudanja Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland, An excellent way to look at the process, apart from a specific art. I think these principles are applicable to TKD and TSD as well as HKD. Too many practioners of these two arts never learn, understand or even have the benefit of being taught the principles or necessary mechanics of the techniques (kicks/blocks/strikes/footwork/hips, etc), and the necessary basic motion and reality of their many uses. And I would cetainly suggest that Ki is not only within the sole domain of the Ki specific arts and is as useable in the kick/punch arts as well. Thanx for a thoughtful way to look at it. Peace Dante -----Original Message----- From: JR Hilland Sent: May 4, 2005 11:35 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] yudanja To train for chodan: You are training to become a beginner, no longer just a guest in the dojang, but a student with very real responsibilities. One must study the basic technical form and theories of basic motion until the correct movement is automatic and feels natural. To train for idan: The power of movement must be emphasized and developed. The functional reality of technique must be explored and an understanding developed of what really works and why. To train for samdan: The student must develop an understanding of ki and begin to break out of technique. To train for sadan: The student must develop an understanding of the theories of hapkido and how they relate to technique. The technical form must be deeply refined according to this understanding and the student must seriously begin to develop the art of training others. Personal training is not enough. To train for ohdan: A complete spontaneity of technique must develop which is no longer technique but the principle that underlies technique. There must be at this point, a complete dedication to the art and a great social and spiritual growth. A growth that produces not a narrow local concern for one dojang or one area, but an active concern for all students. Throughout all these years of training, your physical, mental, social and spiritual understanding and power must steadily progress. The spontaneous application of ki must progress. If you stop training on any one of these levels, your hapkido will no longer grow. Just putting in your time has no meaning. The quality and intensity of your training, the discoveries you make each day, these things have meaning. BTW, this also goes along with the idea that a title is awarded with a dan rank as they go hand in hand in technique and art development. Just my thoughts.. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Dante J. James, Esq. Project Director AA-VIP 303-830-1105 Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional VOTE - Your future depends on it! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Randy Mertes" To: Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 11:21:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: [The_Dojang digest] What is a black belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Morning: I will be testing for my 2nd dahn in a few weeks. I am nervous because I know what dahn tests are like under Master Garrett Dewitt. Our students wouldn't have it any other way but man it hurts! At 50, I worry more about holding together than anything else. I worry about presenting a good image as well. There will be lower belt students watching along with the judges and I want to 'do right' by them. Years ago a professor once told me that 'you don't really know something well until you can teach it.' I have found that to be so true. I can make it through my patterns, sparring, et.al. now but teaching someone else a new pattern is something else. It seems sometimes that I stumble around, lose my place and generally forget where I am. Perhaps passing along what we know is another indicator of what it means to be a blackbelt. To teach someone, you have to forgo your own objectives, to some degree, and look out for them. Apparently some do it for financial gain. Others simply do it for the sheer joy of watching someone else better themselves. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 09:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung Interpretation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JC: “….The practice of one steps directly influences the students ability to spar.Although sparing and fighting are distinctly different. The focus, balance, awareness to targets etc. learned by hyung training are necessities in a fight…..” When you get done concerning yourself with whether or not you can fight, you may want to pick up a couple of the books available on the market about Chi Kung and examine the numbers of postures and movements in the forms that relate to this material. I was pleasantly astounded to repeatedly see movements and postures cropping up in odd places and wondering what the possible purpose for these might be , only to peruse Qi Kung sources and find obvious answers to my questions. Not everything in the hyung is about dominating someone else. Not a little of that material has to do with learning about yourself. Afterall there is more than ONE way to take care of yourself, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hyung influence in combat Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 20:04:59 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All, I like many of us in the digest can honestly say that martial arts has changed my life for the better. I do TKD. I have never used it to defend myself in a combat situation but it has saved my life. The breathing techniques that I have learned, especially from patterns and the kicks, have been put to good use in my job as a fire fighter. of course I get a great deal of satisfaction when a life can be saved. So to answer our friend's question on techniques that can help you defend yourself I feel that in any life or death situation being calm enough to choose an appropriate technique/weapon and deliver it, is what I would aim for. FWIW Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:GladewaterSooBahkDo@msn.com] Sent: 04 May 2005 16:09 To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung influence in combat When I first began training I used to think forms were a waste of time. How come they help me defend my self. I have since come to realize they can and do help. I will give you a simple example. The Ki Cho Hyungs practiced by the Moo Duk Kwan, are also practiced in other organization, as well a variations. Ki Cho Hyung iLL Bu--- simply teaches a pattern and gives the student some simple techniques to practice. the Hyung only introduces the pattern to a beginner. Low Block and Middle punch) ki Cho Hyung E Bu-----simply re-enforces the pattern to the beginning student and gives them a new set of basics to practice bringing there awareness level up by using techniques that range from low level to the high level (Low Block, High Block, High Punch) Ki Cho Hyung Sam Bu- This Hyung allows the student to practice a concept with out thinking about pattern. The pattern has been learned and re-enforced in earlier hyungs. The concept now being taught is transition from stance to stance.(From back stance to front stance to horse stance) The smooth transition from one stance to another is then realized as the student practices one step sparring number 1 where they use three front stances, followed by a transition to back stance (kick) followed by horse stance The practice of one steps directly influences the students ability to spar. Although sparing and fighting are distinctly different. The focus, balance, awareness to targets etc. learned by hyung training are necessities in a fight. JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 16:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's what we tell our students and list on our site: You should look for a school with a head instructor who has attained sufficient rank to understand the martial arts system taught at the school thoroughly. Most people will tell you that Black Belt is only a beginning of a martial artist's journey. A 1st Degree Black Belt has just learned the basic curriculum for his art. The black belt ranking system is sometimes compared to the education system. Rank Educational System Comparison White/Yellow/Orange Belts Elementary School Green/Blue/Purple Belts Middle School Red/Brown Belts High School 1st - 3rd Dan Black Belts University - Bachelor's Degree 4th - 6th Dan Black Belts University - Master's Degree/Graduate School 7th - 9th Dan Black Belts University - Ph.D./Doctoral Studies > >you equate them at a BS/BA level, for me that's a bit high. I would > >think that its more like a primary school grade. For years > I have been --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Todd" To: Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:31:08 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Clark, Thank you for the thought out reply. And, in the most part, I agree with your assessment. Is a black belt equal to a BA/BS? For some, perhaps. For others, maybe like high school or even an elementary school. Thomas Gordon ----------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas, I think you are further correct with your analysis of skill level vs. dan level -- not always equal. I am a 1st dan instructor in Australia in a large nationwide and very traditional TKD organisation - where you do not apply or expect to test for another dan until you are invited by the Master of the School in Australia. This means that in my particular region - there are only two instructors with more than 1st dan. Our Regional Senior Instructor has his 2nd dan and has been blackbelt for 29years. The other guy received his 2nd dan last year after being a blackbelt and instructor for 16years. As you can see, where I come from they don't just pass out dans like lollies - it takes many years of dedication and patience, maintaining readiness for the time when you may be invited to test for your next dan. Not saying this method is best but is just how it is here. TH --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 18:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] NK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok folks, time to take the pro/con NK thread offline. It doesn't seem to be very martial arts or even Korean culture related at this point. I'm sure that much good can be said about 90% of the NK people while nothing good can be said about 100% of the NK leaders. Time to move on. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 21:35:33 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net TH, Normally I would do the politically correct thing and keep my big mouth shut. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason in the world why ANYONE should be a black belt for 29 years and be ranked a 2nd dan. Well there are possibly 3 reasons: 1) The person does not have the skills, ability, knowledge, or dedication to be ranked higher. 2) The person has an awful instructor who is a fake, fraud, or just does not have the ability to teach. 3) The person has an abusive instructor who is unwilling to see their students promoted in rank because they are afraid they will leave the association and do not want to give up power or authority. Ok there are 4 reasons perhaps more but good lord I can not think of one good reason for a person to be black belt who is teaching, and in a position of authority remaining a 2nd dan for that long of a time. While he may not care or you may not care about grading higher your students do and they can not until their instructors grade. My personal opinion, for the sake of your students, run as fast as you can from this group and find someone with whom you can affiliate. If you can't find someone to work with I can help you find someone down under that will help you and your students. I don't believe black belts should be given out like party favors - but then again I don't think they should be so hard, no impossible to achieve. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Thomas, > > I think you are further correct with your analysis of skill > level vs. dan level -- not always equal. I am a 1st dan > instructor in Australia in a large nationwide and very > traditional TKD organisation - where you do not apply or > expect to test for another dan until you are invited by the > Master of the School in Australia. This means that in my > particular region - there are only two instructors with more > than 1st dan. Our Regional Senior Instructor has his 2nd dan > and has been blackbelt for 29years. The other guy received > his 2nd dan last year after being a blackbelt and instructor > for 16years. > > As you can see, where I come from they don't just pass out > dans like lollies - it takes many years of dedication and > patience, maintaining readiness for the time when you may be > invited to test for your next dan. > > Not saying this method is best but is just how it is here. > > TH > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest