Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:08:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #195 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? (Drew Shirley) 2. RE Master Terry,Hyung and combat... (George Peters) 3. RE: WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? (Rick Clark) 4. RE: Rick Clark and hyung.... (George Peters) 5. Nikki's diary (Bob Banham) 6. Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? (Bob Banham) 7. RE: RE: Rick Clark and hyung.... (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:56:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Shirley Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don’t disagree with the McDojo analysis, although I thought it was a wee bit dramatic. They aren’t going to destroy society as we know it. At worst you’ll have to work harder to find a decent school, or work harder to prove your ability to a doubtful audience, but it’s hardly the return of the plague. I do have a question though, and that is why is it that whenever someone brings this argument up, BJJ invariably comes into the mix? How are BJJ and TKD in any way, shape, or form comparable? I realize it’s the hip art right now because of K-1/UFC/Pride, etc. but that doesn’t mean it should be used as the standard by which all martial arts are judged., and I’m seeing it used in that capacity more and more. I will stop this before it turns into a BJJ/MMA rant, but I just don’t get WHY that comparison is always made (other than the occasional BJJ practitioner looking for a sense of superiority over us stodgy traditional martial artists, but that’s neither here nor there.) --- Tkdsid@aol.com wrote: > The Martial Truth Of Taekwondo > > By: Aaron Ploetz > > 05/24/04 > > > > I'm sick of Taekwondo. I'm sick of the money, the > politics, the cheesy > tournaments, and the easy rank requirements. > > > > Instructors are out there taking people's money left > and right. $80 per > month for Instruction, $50 per belt testing, and > equipment mark-ups of 40%-50% > (or > higher). "Little Dragons" or "Little Ninjas" > programs where parents pay a > mint for their kids to learn NOTHING, but still get > a Black Belt to show for > it. > Want to compete at the State Tournament? That's > $55 for one event, $65 for > two, and $75 for three. Oh wait! You must be a > USTU member to compete, so > there's another $35. > > > > Quite frankly, I don't care who controls the U.S. > Olympic Taekwondo governing > body. I haven't gone to a USTU tournament in 4 > years, and I can't say that > their ability to retain the Governing Body status is > going to influence me to > all-of-a-sudden go and support their tournaments. > The AAU might do wonders > for > Olympic TKD, but the AAU has problems of its own, > too. > > > > I'm sick of the corruption, and the people within > the USTU trying to steal > the "State Qualifying" status for their tournament, > and sending letters to > every > dojang in the state [of Wisconsin] telling them that > the other person's > tournament is not recognized. WHO CARES? What > kills me, is that these people > think that airing their dirty laundry is going to > make people want to go to > their > tournament. If anything, I'd stay away from them > all, just to protect the > students from getting involved. My school has not > attended a USTU event in 4 > years because of this fact (that, and the fees are > just WAY too much for > college > students to reasonably afford). > > > > Then there's the realism. Point fighting is a waste > of time. Period. Try > and justify it all you want, but there is NO MARTIAL > BENEFIT to the practice > of > point-fighting. All it does is condition students > to use fast, light-hitting > backfists, and prevents them from striking THROUGH > their targets (with > punches or kicks, for that matter). Do you know how > many point-fighters would > get > STOMPED in the street? Most of them. > > > > Olympic Sparring solves some of the woes of point > fighting, until you get to > that no-hands-to-the-head "thing". Sure, you can > KICK someone in the face as > hard as you want, but if your hand even TOUCHES > someone's headgear, you get > slapped with a penalty. Like that's realistic. > Like I want my students > learning to fight with their hands down, and go into > a clinch, trying to > twitch and > fake their way out of it. "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Bad > Guy, you can't punch me in > the > face, because we don't train for that in my dojang." > > > > Finally, there's rank. Rank in Taekwondo means > nothing. Now, everyone and > their brother holds at least a 1st Dan. Remember > when being a plain-old Black > Belt used to MEAN something? Now every 8-year-old > knows someone in his/her > class [at school] who is a Black Belt. > > > > Almost every Taekwondo school out there has a > "Little Dragons" program (or > some clone thereof) for kids. I've seen schools > that will allow kids to > ascend > to the rank of a 1st Dan Kukkiwon Black Belt by only > knowing half-forms. > HALF! Keep in-mind, that’s not “half of the > number forms”, but > “half-forms”. > Don't people realize that these kids have better > learning capacity than we > adults do? If anything, they should have to learn 3 > or 4 TIMES more forms > than we > do. > > > > What kills me, is that all the parents I've talked > to (with kids in these > programs) don't realize that anything is wrong with > it, until they reach Black > Belt. That's when they say, "Hey, how come my kid > is a Black Belt, and he > doesn't KNOW anything?" > > > > And at that point, the damage is already done. How > many 14-year-old 3rd Dans > do you think are going to be "open-minded", when > told that they'd be > better-off starting completely over? None. They'll > just ignore it, keep > doing their > straight-up-in-the-air kicks, and coast their way > into college, where they'll > probably join-up with a college Martial Arts > program. > > > > Speaking from experience, I can tell you all the > ending of that happy story. > I've been involved in college-level Martial Arts > programs for the last 10 > years. Every semester, I see 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Dans > from the area schools > come > skating-on-in. While all of them are over-confident > in their abilities, some > of them are at least respectful. Those that come-in > looking prove something, > find-out the hard way that their > sport-Taekwondo-tactics won't stand-up to a > full kick or punch. Since we tend to fight with > more-liberal rules than > others, > a lot of them also find-out the hard way that they > don't know how to defend > against a kick to the groin, and that they really > can't kick (or punch, for > that matter) very well once they get taken to the > ground. > > > > I've seen (and been party to) many of these kids > going back to their dorm > rooms with busted noses, lips, and EXTREMELY bruised > egos...and all mostly due > to > their own arrogance. Unfortunately, most of them > can't handle the bruised > ego part, and don't come back. > > > > And sadly-enough, those who do not push their luck, > still do not excel. They > maybe show-up once a week, and line-up quietly in > the back of class; never > showing an interest in learning or advancing. They > do it either out of fear > of > failure, fear of a class room of colored-belts > seeing a Black Belt not knowing > something, or maybe because they were not taught how > to be humble enough to > learn something new. > > > > Are there any schools out there that are doing > anything right? There are a > few "old-school" Taekwondo dojangs out there, but > most people don't stay with > them long-enough. Once they find-out how tough it > is, they move on until they > find a school where they can get a Black Belt as > easy/fast as they want to. > > > > While difficult to find, most of these "old-school" > instructors are up-front > about this. My first instructor still tells his > students that "There are > easier ways to get a Black Belt, than through me." > That being said, it is > even > more-rare to find a dojang that has difficult belt > tests anymore. Everywhere > you go, they keep getting easier and easier. Now, > testing curriculums are > printed and available in the student manual, or even > available online. What > ever > happened to the days when you went sweating into > your testing, because you > didn't have ANY IDEA of what the Instructors were > going to have you do? > > > > Quite honestly, that's why Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has > seen the "boom" that it > has in the last few years. Yeah, sure, Royce Gracie > winning 3 of the first 4 > UFC's (and going undefeated in the process) might > have had something to do > with > it, but there's something deeper than that. It's > the pure honesty of it. > > > > "IF YOU WANT TO GET YOUR FACE BEATEN AND > WELL-SMASHED, YOUR ASS KICKED, AND > YOUR ARMS BROKEN, CONTACT CARLOS GRACIE AT THIS > ADDRESS . . . " > > -- Brazilian newspaper ad, circa 1920s > > > > The famous "Gracie Challenge"...still backed by the > Gracie family to this > very day. Now, I'm not saying that I agree with > this sort of blatant > aggression, > but it's got honesty to it. To me, that says, "if > you want to fight with me, > you'd better be damn sure of what you're doing!" > > > > Let's also look at some of the things that the > Gracies have said in their > books: > > > > "You simply cannot promote someone who cannot fight > to a high belt rank." > > > > "A school looks bad when a high-ranking student > loses a fight." > > > > Like it or lump it, it’s got honesty, and that’s > just what the Taekwondo > world needs a good, solid dose of. > > > > How about belt advancement in BJJ > (White-Blue-Purple-Brown-Black)? Well, you > need to consistently beat everyone you spar at your > own rank, as well as > experience some success sparring those above you. > Once you show this, they > will > simply grant you that color belt. So how do you get > a Blue Belt? Go to any > BJJ > school, mop the floor with their Blue Belts, and > they will simply GIVE you a > Blue Belt. Sounds easy, right? Wrong. The truth > is, that most 4th-6th Dans > in Taekwondo would get absolutely OWNED when > ground-fighting with a BJJ Blue > Belt (or even an experienced white belt, for that > matter). > > > > That's the basis of that art...truth. If your > kicking or punching technique > in Taekwondo doesn't work as well as you'd like, you > may not find out for > months, or even years (kicking air will do that to > you). But if your > technique on > the ground doesn't work, you find-out RIGHT AWAY. > > > > Now, I'm not saying that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the > be-all-end-all of Martial > Arts. But what I am saying, is that as a whole, the > BJJ community is doing a > MUCH better job of teaching Martial Truth, than the > Taekwondo community is > (and has been, for quite a while). > > > > These ideas that are common-place in BJJ are not > new. Many of us have been > screaming about/for them in Taekwondo for years. > There are many good > Taekwondo > instructors out there who do and preach some of > those things that BJJ does. > But, most do not. > > > > The problem is change. Taekwondo changed to meet > the needs of the consumers. > It started tough, but got soft once Instructors saw > the money-making > potential. The same thing then happened to > tournaments. Promoters realized > that > they made more money when people didn't get hurt, so > they cheapened the > rules. > > > > You see, at this point, Taekwondo (as a whole) in > America is similar to a > 70-year-old alcoholic, who still drinks 2 bottles of > Vodka every day. The > alcoholic knows what he's doing is wrong, and that > it is bad for himself. > But, > more-importantly, he fears what will happen if he > doesn't drink. If he stops > cold-turkey (at this point), he knows that he'll > probably die. He's aware of > special programs and clinics out there that could > help him. But that's the > problem, he DOESN'T WANT TO BE HELPED. > > > > Much like the alcoholic, Taekwondo doesn't want to > be helped, either. Do you > think that all the McDojo instructors out there > actually WANT to make belt > testings tougher, so that it takes FIVE WHOLE YEARS > to get a Black Belt? Of > course they don't! That would cut their revenues > from testings in-half, and > they'd lose about 1/4 to 1/3 of their revenue! Do > you think they want kids > waiting until they are 16 to get a Black Belt? No > way! How many kids would > stick > around and wait? And then they'd lose the chance to > nail the kid's parents > for > another $500-$1000! > > > > The problem out there is the instructors. They'd > rather teach an art that is > "profitable" first, and "respectable" second. > Would they have to make > sacrifices to make their art respectable? > Absolutely. And those sacrifices > would > come right out of their pockets. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 04:05:53 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE Master Terry,Hyung and combat... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, The org I belong to split from KJN Hwang Kee's org long ago for many reasons. I am led to believe that the introduction of non-traditional hyung was one of the reasons for this, not worth argueing at this point in time anyway. The DD is no place to carp about organizational differences. As for the other two gentlemen, I cannot vouchsafe. All the advanced hyung in TSD are from older sources than these gentlemen, and everyone lays claim to some form of kicho hyungs. Aside from these observations, I will lean on the teachings of my seniors, which has never been unreliable. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 23:04:58 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] WHAT IS A BLACK BELT? To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Thomas, > From: Thomas Gordon [mailto:tgordon@gordonmartialarts.com] > "...Please - use Rick, I am not really comfortable with the > term "master". I have a far way to go before I "master" the > moral and personal development side of the martial arts not > to mention the physical side - unfortunately there are times > I am not such a good role model :-)" > > LOL! I sincerely apprecaite your humility as I do many on > this list. I am not humble in the least - we all put our pants on the same way in the morning. Jump out of bed, a triple flip with a full twist, both legs in and zipped by the time our feet hit the floor. > There are lots of really fine people on this list > without egos. For that I'm thankful. However, you are my > senior in both age and rank. As such, my father taught me > that means last name is appropriate. Fine, then if you must Mr., or as some of my students call me Prof., but truly - Master is not for me. > After > 40+ years of practice and three master level rankings, if you aren't > "master status," what is? Don't know, that's for sure, but I do know it's not me. Don't get me wrong I do appreciate your thoughtfulness - but - like I said I don't think of myself as a "master" and I am uncomfortable with that 'title'. > To me, master means a level of > ranking. Some consider fourth and other's consider seventh. :-) To me it's a bit more than rank. I think you could be a "master" even as a white belt IF you had mastered yourself, and I have a long way to go with that. > In my opinion, NONE of us have complete errorless mastery > over anything. Perfection should be strived for but I have > never perfected anything in my life that didn't have the > occasional "non-perfect" results. Very true - and even more how many are Grandmasters? Oh wait a minute, I'll look in the yellow pages and count . . . . . . > > Even the NRA allows that master status is not perfect. In > fact, 95% accuracy is considered master. > > My first instructor coorelated martial art rank with military > rank. Seems most generals are in their mid to late 50's > (outside of war time and new military formation). Seems > about right for a ninth degree. :) I agree with him - there are 10 ranks in the military and at least in the Japanese arts 10 degrees of black belt. Perhaps a good discussion would be what makes a "master"? Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org > > Thomas Gordon > Florida > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 04:18:34 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Rick Clark and hyung.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Kudos to you and all of the achievments you have listed. I am quite familiar with all the reasons you have listed for forming your own org and salute your efforts in trying to preserve what you practice. No disrespect intended to you if you intended none to me in your comments on what someone is teaching. My head instructor and grandmaster is a first generation student of Hwang Kee and has never wavered in his love for this gentleman or his respect. He was formerly VP of Hwang Kee's org in the US. I made mention of what is taught in our org to share with others and encountered what I believed to be a flippant comment. People in our age group should be loathe to do this. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:25:41 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Nikki's diary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net URL for Nikki's diary is http://www.chilsong.com/Welcome/Menu%20Items/N%20K%20&%20China%202005/N%20Kor ea%20diary.htm Sorry. If you goto www.chilsong.com and follow link from pictures page. Bob --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:50:35 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Poor old Aaron Ploetz does sound disillusioned. But Brazilian jujitsu isn't a Korean martial art so I think there are two points here. Is a black belt in Taekwondo worth less than it should be (used to be)? And is the general standard of Taekwondo lower than it should be? All I can say is that the situation is similar in UK if you allow it to be. Just don't allow it. In 1992 I was a WTF 4th dan and I too was getting totally disillusioned with WTF in the UK. So I went to Baton Rouge, Louisiana and met the man who has had most influence on my martial arts in nearly 40 years - Dr He-Young Kimm. And now I have one of the strongest schools in my area. Why? Because the syllabus is comprehensive and taxing and because the testing, whether for dan grade or below, is the same. My students have self respect and the respect of their peers in other styles. We compete at local and national multi-style competitions, we stay in the spotlight of local and national advertising and I stay in touch with whatever's happening in my local area, what's happening nationally and what's happening internationally. (DD helps here!) You don't ever have to follow the crowd unless it's going the way you want to go! Bob --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 10:48:12 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Rick Clark and hyung.... To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi George, > From: George Peters [mailto:kyosag@hotmail.com] > Good Sir, > Kudos to you and all of the achievments you have listed. Thank you. > I am quite familiar with all the reasons you have listed for forming your own org and > salute your efforts in trying to preserve what you practice. I appreciate that, sad to say that you are familiar with the reasons I have to break away. That means someone else has experienced similar difficulties that I have had in the past. > No disrespect intended to you if you intended none to me in your > comments on what someone is teaching. My head instructor and > grandmaster is > a first generation student of Hwang Kee and has never wavered > in his love > for this gentleman or his respect. He was formerly VP of > Hwang Kee's org in > the US. Writing in such a format can lead to misunderstandings, it is very easy to do. > I made mention of what is taught in our org to share > with others and > encountered what I believed to be a flippant comment. People > in our age > group should be loathe to do this. I do try to be very careful of what I post, many times I write a response and end up deleting them. I don't have a problem with what others teach, and I hope others do not have a problem with what I teach. > Respectfully, > George Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest