Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:32:54 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #196 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE Master Terry,Hyung and combat... (Ray) 2. url for NK diary (Bob Banham) 3. Re: yudanja, etc. (jakskru) 4. RE: Joint locks (Howard Spivey) 5. Re: Taekkyon (Beungood8@aol.com) 6. Wishes for a safe trip (Ray) 7. Lois (Richard Tomlinson) 8. "Yankee"? (Master Mac) 9. Re: Sad perspective on martial arts, how (Ray) 10. Sad Perspective on martial arts (Richard Tomlinson) 11. Re: Nikki's diary (Ray) 12. Tae kyon ??? (Patrick L) 13. Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 14. Mr Clark and Hyung (Bruce Sims) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE Master Terry,Hyung and combat... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 08:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > the other two gentlemen, I cannot vouchsafe. All the advanced hyung in TSD > are from older sources than these gentlemen, and everyone lays claim to some > form of kicho hyungs. Aside from these observations, I will lean on the > teachings of my seniors, which has never been unreliable. My personal view is that we should -always- question the teachings of our seniors. In a respectful way, of course, but... it is their job to answer the questions and it is our job to question the answers. imho That said, your additional qualification of 'advanced hyung' may disqualify Itsou's Pinans as well as Funakoshi's Kichos. But I submit that we do not know from where the other 'advanced hyung' sprang. They too may have been developed by school teachers looking for new ways to teach concepts or they were perhaps developed by military Generals looking for ways to help prepare and train soldiers for mortal combat. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but I suspect the former is the case. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:14:06 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] url for NK diary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The url is: http://www.chilsong.com/Welcome/Menu Items/N K & China 2005/N Korea diary.htm --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] yudanja, etc. Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:21:34 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net thank you sir for the response...although i still suspect that there may be a way to drill what i am looking for. it just seems that i have a project to work on and develop on my own...though your comments gave me a good point to start from. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J R Hilland" To: Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] yudanja, etc. > I don't see any relationship between sparring and actual combat unless you > have no rules, any weapon is allowed and you have multiple attackers. That > dojang wouldn't be around very long. Yes, we practice throws and joint locks > in the occasional sparring practice, but you can't think of hapkido this > way. A technique does not have a beginning or an end. In other words, the > attack, technique, and conclusion are all interchangeable. With practice all > that is developed into muscle memory. Although I seldom teach this way, when > I was young student, we spent the whole class on one technique, with > different beginnings and endings. But that is hard on the joints, so you > don't see that way of teaching much anymore. But incorporating simple throws > and joint locks into sparring is not that difficult, it does however take a > whole lot of control. I have been teaching sparring this way for decades and > I still prefer to only teach it in class occasionally. > > << this I mean, for example, what can be done to incorporate say a wrist lock > or arm bar of some kind, or even a simple belt throw into practical and > consistent use in sparring, other than by practicing one on one self > defense?>>> --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:33:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Joint locks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bouncing is different from real self-defense. If you are defending yourself against what you perceive to be a life-threatening attack, you would not stop a wrist or elbow lock at the point of compliance. You would apply the lock until you break or dislocate the joint, then follow on with finishing strikes (for example, dropping a knee on the ribs or head while the attacker is on the ground is quite effective). What happens when you let a guy go after you dislocate his elbow with an armbar? That arm probably doesn't pose much of a threat to you any more. "This reminds me of a question I asked to Master Steve Sexton who is a notorious bouncer in Los Angeles. I asked him if in all of his years in the bar business, how often did he use pain compliance techniques or locks (chicken wing, etc) to "escourt" unruly patrons outside. He said "never...what happens when you let them go? What happens if his buddies see you leading their friend outside?" Good question especially when the cops aren't right outside and you can't hand off the bad guy to them." --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:45:53 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Taekkyon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/7/2005 6:56:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Up until some time ago I always believe that Taekwondo was partially based on Taekkyeon and that Hapkido had its kicks imported from Taekkyeon. However, I have been practicing Taekkyeon for some time now and I have come to the conclusion. The guy who imported Taekkyeon-kicks to make TKD or enrich HKD was either OR as bad Taekkyeon player OR a liar. What brings you to this conclusion? What are the differences between the kicking styles? What do you like/dislike about Taekkyon? Where are you training in it? Jack --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Wishes for a safe trip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a note to wish Gm West and all the USKMAF-ers a safe trip to Korea. Please let us know how things went when you return. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 16:00:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Lois Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How did your test go!! And A BIG CONGRATS TO YOU!!! It was and will always be a major highlight of my life. sandy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 14:59:11 -0500 From: Master Mac To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] "Yankee"? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere, You told Rich " that, if you live north of I-10 you are considered a Yankee,"? Isn't Preston Wood, Cypress Creek YMCA, Texas A&M etc all north of I-10? Guess that makes you a Yankee - Deer Park is south of I-10, so I'm a REAL Texan. :-) Mac (I only moved to the north side of Houston, not the US) --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 12:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I do have a question though, and that is why is it > that whenever someone brings this argument up, BJJ > invariably comes into the mix? How are BJJ and TKD in > any way, shape, or form comparable? I realize it’s the > hip art right now because of K-1/UFC/Pride, etc. but > that doesn’t mean it should be used as the standard by > which all martial arts are judged., and I’m seeing it > used in that capacity more and more. Actually, it seems the hip thing now is to cross-train. I guess that means you become a jack of all yet a Master of none. The BJJers did very well in the beginning of the "Some-Holds-Barred" events. But now the strikers that have cross-trained in grappling seem to be winning more frequently. BJJ is changing, tho. And I think the frequent comparison is because they want the market penetration that TKD currently enjoys. BJJ is changing, splitting, growing, w/new instructors popping up everywhere. Ummm, kind of like what happened with TKD ~20 years ago... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 16:28:19 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sad Perspective on martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sigh.... while the Mc Dojangs will die, new ones appear to replace them. They dont last. All our schools are individually owned but, we answer to our Grand Master... we use his teaching and it is demanded of us to keep it pure. We teach pure traditional Tae Kwon Do... We do not go looking for fame in tournaments, our organization has been around for over 30 years and has made it's mark. We look for our importance in our dojangs with our students, with parents. No one has lasted long with us who does not practice and teach from the heart, or who does not have the highest expectation of providing quality teaching. Even as an owner, manager and instructor, it is expected to attend instructor training every Friday morning... and to train in between classes. The Mc Dojangs will come and go.... we'll keep watching and continue to be the best we can be. sandy --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Nikki's diary To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 13:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > URL for Nikki's diary is > http://www.chilsong.com/Welcome/Menu%20Items/N%20K%20&%20China%202005/N%20Korea%20diary.htm > Good job on the diary. What was the archery like near King Tongmyong's tomb? Looks like you were using a traditional (Mongolian?) short recurve bone bow. Could Dr. Kimm hit the target? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:06:29 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tae kyon ??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Barneds, I can't speak to all HKD, but I can tell you that I have studied a rather extensive set of kicks directly from Taekkyon. Part of the problem may be that the Taekkyeon you are studiing might be less than, different dialect of, or more than, that incorporated by others. I have been told that there were NO taekkyon schools known to the HKD teachers when HKD was being Koreanized. And that the resources for learning Taekkyon were VERY scarce. If you are studing the rythemic dance version of Taekkyon, then your source is VERY different than the source studied for HKD. Sincerely, Patrick >The guy who imported Taekkyeon-kicks to make TKD or enrich HKD was either OR as bad Taekkyeon player OR a liar. Anybody any comments? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends< --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:28:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The Martial Truth Of Taekwondo By: Aaron Ploetz" Unfortunately , there is some truth to what Mr. Ploetz says. The commercial side of TKD is a big influence in many areas of this MA. In addition, there are millions of people in TKD so one would expect a wide variety of skill levels and quality. AT the same time, there also many very good TKD instructors, who run good MA programs and care about their students. It is not all about the money for some TKD people. It will be interesting to see what impact money has on BJJ after a few decades in the USA. Some people say that money corrupts. John --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 18:00:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr Clark and Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick: ".....I have not succumbed to the pressure to adopt the constantly changing new forms of the "modern" TKD. These new forms have been created in an attempt to make TDK different from the root art of Shotokan, and what you see today are forms that are shadows of the original. You have seen the rules in sparing change to what we see as Olympic style TKD which is NOT what I have the least bit of interest in being associated with...." If you understand this much you can understand how it is that I have invested so much in learning the older material instead of the sorts of things that have been contrived for organizational purposes. I find that the older forms are more challenging, contain significantly more information and reflect more serious intent for the use of the arts. True one does not find such material published by some new authority turning up on shelves at the local BARNES AND NOBLES each week. It takes digging, and research and training. But the result is much more satisfying for me than pleasing some guy on the other side of a testing table, Screww him. If he was actually an authority on Korean Martial Arts he would be out on the floor as your partner in your test instead of sitting on his butt looking imperial, right? Best Wishes, Bruce --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest