Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 05:32:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #197 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Sad perspective on martial arts, how (Rick Clark) 2. To chubbee wannabee and his ilk (Tkdsid@aol.com) 3. Re: Tae kyon ??? (Ray) 4. Re: Sad perspective on martial arts, how (Ray) 5. northern lights and yudanja (J R Hilland) 6. Joint Locks, release, etc. (Brooke Thomas) 7. Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? (Robert Mitchell) 8. Archery (Bob Banham) 9. Posthumous Decoration for Taekwondo Leader Under Study (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:18:04 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] > Actually, it seems the hip thing now is to cross-train. I guess that > means you become a jack of all yet a Master of none. One of the things I would argue is that cross training is the most traditional thing we can be doing. The reason I say this is that a couple of hundred (or more) years ago the people who were martial artists would have been versed in various arts. They would have had skill with armed and unarmed combat. This could have been with one or more weapons, edged, blunt, or projectile. They would probably have had some skill in defense against such weapons, skill in longer range attacks and at close quarters. I would expect them to have had skill in percussive as well as locks, throws, and other techniques. I tend to think that in the old days the martial artists were more well rounded in skill sets as compared to what we see today. So to cross train seems to me to go back to a more traditional mind set. > Ray Terry Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 22:02:25 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] To chubbee wannabee and his ilk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tenth Dan in Bul Shi Tsu: Absurd Claims and Martial Efficacy By Phil Elmore Can a martial art with a fabricated history or lineage be effective?How should we react when confronted with practitioners selling the latest "ultimate" or "most efficient" art, something so secret and so powerful that it has only recently been made available to the public?Should you believe marketing that claims, for two hundred dollars and a video tape series, that you will "fear no man" or "defeat any attacker?"The martial arts world is rife with absurd claims. More common, if slightly less hyperbolic than claims of Ultimate Best Super Efficiency, are the assertions within established arts whose official histories are shaky at best -- and completely manufactured at worst. Should these arts be shunned, dismissed, derided, or otherwise avoided?There are two components one must consider when evaluating a martial art or combatives system: history and technique. History includes any and all marketing claims and background associated with the art. Technique, obviously, is the actual physical efficacy of the art's theory and application.The two have no relationship to each other -- except for the insight the history offers into the mind and ethics of the individual making claims about the technique.HISTORYWhen you encounter someone claiming to teach the martial art of the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs' fry cooks or foot soldiers, demand that he or she attempt to substantiate this rather odd claim. We know precious little about ancient Egyptian society in comparison to the totality of it. Can anyone alive today tell you for certain how the ancient Egyptians even pronounced their name for themselves? Does it stand to reason that specific techniques would be handed down from generation to generation to the present day? If an instructor tells you his videotapes are hot stuff because he teaches the ancient combative art of Roman gladiatorial janitors, ask yourself seriously just how possible it is that these techniques have managed to travel from the blood-soaked Coliseum floor to your VCR through the mists of time. If you're being asked to believe that the cost of shipping and handling is all that separates you from the explosive power of vampire gypsy acrobat ninja from the steppes of Romania, be skeptical.While you're being skeptical, however, ask yourself this: Why is this instructor trying to sell me on this? Why, if his art is worth learning, should he feel it is necessary to snow me with absurd and unverifiable pretense? Does this instructor know that the lineage or history of her art cannot be verified? If not, what excuse is there for ignorance of this type? If so, why is she lying to me? There are a lot of earnest instructors out there who lean hard on marketing hype. Usually, they'll be honest about what they're doing. They're business people and they need to sell themselves. It's unfortunate that the hard sell often looks just like the absurd claims made by charlatans, but when you examine teachers like this more closely, you'll generally see them for what they are.If, however, your examination reveals someone who surrounds himself with ridiculous claims of history and lineage, you're dealing with someone who desperately wants the dubious credibility such affections provide. Be wary of this. Even if that Romanian-death-ninja-vampire-acrobat-Gymkata style is superbly effective on the street, the foundation of all good teaching is trust. Can you trust someone who would knowingly lie to you?TECHNIQUE"Fear no man!""The most effective art of all time!""Learn to defeat any attacker in fifteen minutes!"The surest way to spot a questionable art is to be confronted with unbelievable marketing. The more fraudulent the system, the more outlandish the assertion. You've seen the web sites and the full-page advertisements in Black Belt. Be extremely suspicious of anyone claiming to offer the "ultimate" anything, and run fast and far from anyone who thinks you'll be a black-belt-thrashing terror after a half hour of video "courses."When you see this sort of business, question it. Here's a tip, too: testimonials aren't proof. No matter how whacky the system, there will always be rubes who fall for it. Their glowing recommendations are simply their means of combating cognitive dissonance, that discomfort caused by the conflict between reality and our contrary desires and actions. Demand proof. The burden of proof rests with those who make grand assertions.Keeping these warning signs in mind, you may decide you wish to check into a questionable art for yourself. If you have the time and the resources, by all means, do so. And don't be swayed when the marketer in question becomes indignant or otherwise outraged, demanding to know who you are to question him. You see, fraudulent histories combined with outrageous claims of technique are the two-pronged attack that Virtual Tough Guys use to create and defend their delusional architectures. When you question these, you are attacking their fragile self-images. Wouldn't you become angry and defensive when your self-worth as so challenged? When pressed, such people will trot out long lists of credentials. This Appeal to Authority is designed to stop your substantive criticisms before they begin. While those confident in their abilities and secure in their personalities don't often trouble themselves over questions of paper certifications, those who are terribly concerned that you see them as they wish to be seen rely on these. Remember that the truth or falsehood of a statement is not found in the resume of the speaker. Words stand on their own. DOES IT MATTER?The martial arts are a lot like religion. There are true believers who can be dissuaded by nothing, regardless of the tenuous nature of their beliefs. And there are solid individuals whose conduct and knowledge are impeccable -- even if one doubts the veracity of the very foundations of that knowledge.Much as a religion invented wholesale centuries ago can attain credibility and legitimacy over time, even arts with fabricated histories can be effective. Given enough time, these arts can even become worthy of respect, as the assumed credibility of historical assertions gives way to the real credibility earned through application of the art.The key is in the approach of the individual practitioner or instructor. An instructor who clings to dubious assertions about her art's background, who becomes angry and defensive when questioned about them, should not be trusted. A teacher who claims to know devastating ultimate secrets only recently made available to the public, who cloaks himself in an aura of SpecOps BlackBag mystery, should not be taken seriously. Even if the individual in question is capable of taking on all challengers, whipping Bruce Lee's ghost, picking up a tree and killing legions of ninja assassins, or poking holes through cinder blocks with his index finger, you cannot afford to trust those who place such a high value on pretense.Can you? --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Tae kyon ??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 17:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Part of the problem may be that the Taekkyeon you are studiing might be less > than, different dialect of, or more than, that incorporated by others. > > I have been told that there were NO taekkyon schools known to the HKD > teachers when HKD was being Koreanized. And that the resources for learning > Taekkyon were VERY scarce. > > If you are studing the rythemic dance version of Taekkyon, then your source > is VERY different than the source studied for HKD. fwiw, to be completely accurate in what I had said earlier... The kicks that Gm Ji introduced to Hapkido were from Sam Rang Do Tek Gi, according to Gm Ji. Not the rhythmic dance of taekkyon, but supposedly the kicks of the SamRang. Similar kicks, different purpose. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 20:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > One of the things I would argue is that cross training is the most > traditional thing we can be doing. The reason I say this is that a > couple of hundred (or more) years ago the people who were martial > artists would have been versed in various arts. They would have had > skill with armed and unarmed combat. This could have been with one or > more weapons, edged, blunt, or projectile. They would probably have had > some skill in defense against such weapons, skill in longer range > attacks and at close quarters. I would expect them to have had skill in > percussive as well as locks, throws, and other techniques. I'm not so sure... But I guess at some point far enough back you get to where there were no styles and people were just learning different ways to fight, so.?. However what we frequently see these days are 25 or 30 year old Grandmasters that proudly display on their resume the twenty different styles and instructors they have trained under in their "long" 10 or 15 years in the arts. Now, these guys and gals are frequently excellent athletes, in tip-top shape, and perhaps even "juicing" to get bigger and stronger. I wouldn't want to have to fight them... without my sticks, knifes and/or guns. But I wonder exactly where they will be and how much they'll really know once the years take their toll. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 23:44:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] northern lights and yudanja Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of the drills I like are involve everyone circling one student and the attacks are either static for lower ranks or dynamic for higher ranks. Everyone then just starts going. One at a time for lower ranks, multiples for higher ranks. Sometimes the center person can be blindfolded, or sitting, with a weapon, etc. When the higher belts are in the middle, lower belts will typically grab, kickers will kicks, throwers will try and throw you etc. There are many other fine ways to practice these types of techniques from unknown attacks. <<>> Good catch and good memory old man! :) I grew up in Kat's neighborhood (before Sharpstown mall became gunpoint mall) and lived near the island south of Rich after college. But Cypress Creek was not around when I went to HS, it was Cy-Fair for me. Creek wasn't built till the late 70's. Say hi to the ocean for me. Don't get much of that around here. My June calendar is filling up by I still am planning a trip to Texas to see everyone, and the Gulf! << To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Joint Locks, release, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Spivey posted the difference between a job and self-defence. Well said. If someone is threatening your life, break anything and everything. Bouncers, security, body guards, and the police really can't do that and I wasn't very specific in my earlier post. Someone once posted (on this list?) that Aikido is the perfect art to counter "drunken brother-in-law" syndrome. I don't know. My orginal post wasn't to question whether or not locks "work," but what happened when you used them? Many good replies, thank you. Also, I can't help but chime in on the "why is the BJJ comparison constantly brought up" post. Yes, BJJ is light on the "do" and if one is looking to instill a student creed, scream glass-breaking spirit shouts, and wear multi-color belts, BJJ is not your thing. Ask yourself this question...have you ever been to a social gathering and have someone find out you're a martial artist only to have that someone say, "oh, that's nice, my ten year old is a blackbelt too." Really....what style/art do they practice? Betcha lots of bank it ain't BJJ... I agree with Mr. Terry on his recent post about strikers with a ground game now starting to change UFC, etc. There have been several matches recently with shooters getting knocked out by good underhook defenses which force the preferred ground game guys to stand and trade. So obviously one art doesn't have a death grip on what works 'in a ring'. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Robert Mitchell" To: Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:20:07 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I have experienced a similar decline in Oz. Back when I trained for my black belt (in an ITF style), although curriculum was the same as now, but the amount of techniques actually taught, and also demonstrated by students at gradings was much, much more. But it seems ot have been driven by litigation concerns rather than anything else. I really feel for the WTF clubs around though, in the last 5 years they have seen National and International control of their cuuiculum, training and gradings take over so much, and been dumbed down to the minimum standard required, that virtually all of them now offer at least another art in addition to their TKD. This is in order to get some realistic ho-shin-sul back into their offerings, and also to provide some variety. As to the BJJ reference. I really think it depends on the quality fo what you are taught. Way back when, my TKD (ITF) 3nd dan senior instructor, dealt with a tournament fighter who challenged him for rights to one of our Dojangs. The challenger was a 4th degree karateka with an extensive and successful ring fighting experience and a habit of showing up at martial arts studios to challenge the local black-belts - until this time he had never been beaten. He tried kicking the TKD persons legs out, to no avail, he then switched suddenly to boxing , again to no avail, then switched even more suddenly to a BJJ style shoot, which my instructor dealt with by flowing with it and turning over in a sort of sideways modified stomach throw. The challenger tried wrestling, and then switched again to boxing, whereupon my instructor, who till now have been very obviously keeping his cool, decided it was time to finish this game and tapped the challengers nose hard enough to either break it or make him think it was broken - with a crescent punch. There was nothing in my instructor's responses or reactions that we did not recognise as not being TKD, and it was all familiar to us as being taught in the curriculum. But the level of general all-round skills imparted by many TKD school nowadays would leave us unable to deal with this situation once the challenger changed form kicking to boxing, let alone the shoot-fighting cum wrestling. >>ubject: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how widespread??? >>eply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> >>oor old Aaron Ploetz does sound disillusioned. But Brazilian jujitsu isn't a >>orean martial art so I think there are two points here. Is a black belt in >>aekwondo worth less than it should be (used to be)? And is the general >>tandard of Taekwondo lower than it should be? >> >>al I can say is that the situation is similar in UK if you allow it to be....... --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:37:07 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Archery Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nikki says the archery was great. Yes, they were using Mongolian type bows and yes, Dr. Kimm hit the target sometimes! All of us in Hanmudo who are over 5th dan have a bow just like that. At 6th dan, archery and knife throwing are our weapons techniques so we all have bows (and knives) and are practicing hard whenever possible. The bows were brought back from South Korea by Dr Kimm and they are a very comfortable and accurate weapon. I try to shoot every day (if it's not raining!) Bob --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 06:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Posthumous Decoration for Taekwondo Leader Under Study Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Posthumous Decoration for Taekwondo Leader Under Study 05-09-2005 by Jung Sung-ki The Korea Times The Ministry of Patriots and Veterans Affairs said Monday it is reviewing whether to give a posthumous state decoration to Choi Hong-hee, ex-president of the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF), for his independence activities during the 1910-45 Japanese colonial rule of Korea. A taekwondo coach, identified only by his first name Kim, from the Kyongbuk College of Science in North Kyongsang Province, presented further applications for a state decoration last March to the ministry on behalf of the late Choi, a ministry official said. "The ministry is reviewing the applications. The final decision is expected to be made by July,'' the official said. In May 2001, Choi asked the ministry for a state decoration to honor his activities during the colonial period, according to the ministry. But the request was rejected in August 2002, due to his alleged pro-North Korean activities after the nation's liberation from the colonial rule, it said. Choi died on June 15, 2002, in Pyongyang, North Korea. Choi served a seven-year prison term for leading a revolt against the Japanese Army's conscription of Koreans in Pyongyang in 1944 under the Japan's colonial rule. Choi emigrated to Canada in 1972, where he launched the headquarters of the ITF. His emigration, however, ignited rumors that the taekwondo master's move was a result of a friction with then President Park Chung-hee. At that time, Park wanted to appoint Kim Un-yong, then presidential aide, as president of the ITF, sources said. Kim later became president of the World Taewondo Federation (WTF) in Seoul. Choi was banned from entering the country being branded as a "pro-North Korean'' figure, after he visited the North in 1979 and met with then North Korean leader Kim Il-sung. After retiring from the Army as a major general in 1962, he inaugurated the ITF in 1966. Before he died, Choi had yearned for the unification of taekwondo between South and North Korea, sources said. Taekwondo, a traditional Korean martial art, is currently overseen by the two organizations globally _ the WTF and the ITF. The two groups have tried to discuss integration, with no substantial progress. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest