Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 03:04:24 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #199 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Sad perspective on martial arts, how (Rick Clark) 2. Black Belt Test (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. t'aekkyeon (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. Black Belts (Bruce Sims) 5. What Is A Black Belt? (JOHNMAUSA@aol.com) 6. RE: Gen. Choi's obit (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 7. RE: Joint locks (Howard Spivey) 8. Re: What Is A Black Belt? (Patrick Williams) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 08:39:08 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Sad perspective on martial arts, how To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, > > One of the things I would argue is that cross training is the most > > traditional thing we can be doing. The reason I say this is that a > > couple of hundred (or more) years ago the people who were martial > > artists would have been versed in various arts. They would > have had > > skill with armed and unarmed combat. This could have been > with one or > > more weapons, edged, blunt, or projectile. They would > probably have > > had some skill in defense against such weapons, skill in > longer range > > attacks and at close quarters. I would expect them to have > had skill > > in percussive as well as locks, throws, and other techniques. > > I'm not so sure... But I guess at some point far enough back > you get to where there were no styles and people were just learning > different ways to fight, so.?. My point is that if you were to learn to fight back then you had to be well rounded in all weapons and ranges of combat. Today in the modern styles or systems there does not seem to the emphasis on more complete systems. Hence, people will cross train to fill in gaps that are not met by the more modern systems. > > However what we frequently see these days are 25 or 30 year > old Grandmasters that proudly display on their resume the > twenty different styles and > instructors they have trained under in their "long" 10 or 15 > years in the arts. No dispute here. > > Now, these guys and gals are frequently excellent athletes, > in tip-top shape, and perhaps even "juicing" to get bigger > and stronger. I wouldn't want to have to fight them... > without my sticks, knifes and/or guns. But I wonder > exactly where they will be and how much they'll really know > once the years take their toll. > > Ray Terry If they get the same the breaks, bruises, sprains, torn ligaments I have over the years - they will be very sore :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:43:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt Test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone I spent the last several days 5 hours north of my home participating in our regional Dan Shim Sa. On Friday Night 15 master instructors between 4th and 6th dan got together to train. The training was intense and focused on information taught at the last Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa hosted by HC Hwan Kwan Jang Nim. As always I enjoyed the opportunity to train with other master from around my region. There were 15 candidates testing (9 for Cho Dan, 2 for E-Dan, and 4 for Sam Dan) This was a special event for me because my wife tested for Cho Dan. I was very proud of her. She began her training in 1998, and has trained very hard. I read through some of the post I had missed during my trip, and was surprised at some of the discussion. George Peters seems to have a grasp on the Jon Tong, and Chul Hak of his art. Some others seem to have a warped since of traditional martial art. I train in a traditional martial art, I also (personally train) in other less traditional arts. this allows me to see the benefits of both. IMHO people that train in traditional arts seem to have a deeper since of respect, loyalty, and value for what is right and wrong. People that train in less traditional arts seem to care more about money, self-centered ideas, and the fighting aspects of the art (what works) Before everyone gets bent out of shape, I know this does not apply to everyone, But we must realize that martial arts have evolved over the last 200 years. The applications of combat have changed, no longer are people carrying swords, and other traditional weapons, as well as many other factors of modern combat-vs-old world combat. Comparing them is apples and oranges, However discipline, respect, loyalty, etc. have not changed. They are still important, and and should still be a part of every martial arts practitioner. The problem is with modern society and the decline of moral values. Jc --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 10:30:45 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] t'aekkyeon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Beungood8 wrote: >The guy who imported Taekkyeon-kicks to make TKD or enrich HKD was either OR as bad Taekkyeon player OR a liar. I think it is clear that t'aekkyeon influenced the style of Korean kicking after its renewed popularity in the late 1950s. Yes, opportunities to learn it remained limited, but there was a definite attempt to link newer Korean martial arts to t'aekkyeon or subak in order to lend them legitimacy. The difference in kicking could be seen by the 1960s, when Korean stylists (including Chuck Norris) definitely used more spinning kicks and more arcing kicks, which is typical of t'aekkyeon. Patrick L wrote: >I have been told that there were NO taekkyon schools known to the HKD teachers when HKD was being Koreanized. And that the resources for learning Taekkyon were VERY scarce. Both are probably true. But GM Ji still studied t'aekkyeon, right? It may not have been at a formal school though. Patrick L wrote: >If you are studing the rythemic dance version of Taekkyon, then your source is VERY different than the source studied for HKD. Now this I don't understand. I have yet to see t'aekkyeon practiced without pumbakki. That brings up another point though. When I studied t'aekkyeon in 1987, it was quite different from what I see from Robert Young's videotapes. The kicks were largely the same, but without any side kicks (considered "too dangerous") and the style of front kicks was different. They were just starting to add forms, too. But also one must realize that the game of t'aekkyeon is different from fighting with t'aekkyeon. I remember a story about an old capoeirista that is appropriate. A young man challenged him and was shocked when the old guy completely ignored the ginga and just broke his leg with a side kick. It was still capoeira, even if in training it wouldn't be done that way. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:07:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Brian: “….I could go on and on about this because, again, it is a topic who's meaning is so diverse depending on who you speak with. I just wanted to touch on what I thought was the foundation one must begin their journey as a black belt…..” Yes, I’m sure we could all go on and on with this theme, but I think you hit it hard on the head when you make a point of identifying it as a beginning. Regardless of how much technical stuff and how much conditioning one puts into a gueppies training, wrapping a Black multi-stitched band around your middle should be a step across a line into a level of commitment, self-improvement and responsibility very different from the series of colored belts that brings one to that point. No more bouncing from school to school to see what this or that group is “like”. No more mixing and matching material trying to build the “ultimate” art. For myself, returning from Overseas was an amazing experience. I had counted on returning to a “normal” society to get my feet on the ground and get back into the groove. What I found was that I had a whole lot better idea of what constituted “reality” and “truth” than most of the folks who were suppose to be speaking intelligently about Life and Values. I mention this because in many societies Rites of Passage serve to tell children when they have crossed into adulthood. Political correctness has swept away of most things that served for years in this capacity in our US society. The role of the BB in traditional KMA is one of the last few vestiges of this sort of rite and it seems to be degrading fast. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: JOHNMAUSA@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 16:39:12 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] What Is A Black Belt? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A black belt is a strap of black cloth that is awarded to a martial artist who has, with great pride, skill, talent and time, proven to his/her peers, that he is highly qualified and possesses unquestionable moral character and integrity! John E. Chambers Martial Arts USA --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: , Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Gen. Choi's obit Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 17:59:16 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >As a side note, Juche is a completely different form from Kodang, Not just a name change. If you're over 30, I suggest Kodang! :) Jason --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:50:14 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Joint locks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Brooke, thanks... and please just call me Howard... btw, I agree with the comment below for the most part, but even if we're talking about police, bouncers, body guards, etc., if they reasonably feel that their lives are in danger, aren't they legally allowed to use deadly force to defend their own person? Of course, I appreciate your point that in most cases, bouncers and security people are not threatened by deadly force, so dislocating an elbow is not usually justified. Regards... "Mr. Spivey posted the difference between a job and self-defence. Well said. If someone is threatening your life, break anything and everything. Bouncers, security, body guards, and the police really can't do that and I wasn't very specific in my earlier post..." --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:33:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Williams Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] What Is A Black Belt? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A black belt can stand for many things. The most important of which is one's own self knowing that he or she has reach a point where, skill and heart are involved. All pride aside. It is a inner knowing that I see when I promote a student. If I don't see it, they can not wear the cloth which is so common to us. JOHNMAUSA@aol.com wrote:A black belt is a strap of black cloth that is awarded to a martial artist who has, with great pride, skill, talent and time, proven to his/her peers, that he is highly qualified and possesses unquestionable moral character and integrity! John E. Chambers Martial Arts USA _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest