Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:04:29 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #221 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Chinese characters for Tenets (66-21) 2. warmups anyone? (Jye nigma) 3. From another group...Combat TKD (Jye nigma) 4. languages in Korea (Ray) 5. 22nd Camarillo Mayor's Cup (Ray) 6. Re: From another group...Combat TKD (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "66-21" To: Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:38:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chinese characters for Tenets Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know where there may be a copy of the Tenets of Tae Kwon Do written in Chinese and Korean characters? The tenets that I am looking for are: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, and Indomitable Spirit. Thanks for the help. Lance Schutjer Midwest Academy of Tae Kwon Do --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: martialstudies@yahoogroups.com, csemt@yahoogroups.com, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] warmups anyone? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net lol... http://www.kungfu-school.ru/video/10/small.wmv __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From another group...Combat TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I got this from another group: anyone ever heard of Combat TKD? ToyGeek Combat TKD One of the students showed me a tape with the Korean army practicing Combat TKD, Those guys were pretty tough, and it is a world of difference from American/Olympic style TKD, It' such a shame that that style is so watered down at most( not all) of the schools out here in the states. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] languages in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Of possible interest. Forwarding... Mr. Atkinson brings up an interesting though controversial question. Unfortunately, I don't think there is any one easy answer. Scholars are generally divided on the question, not because of the methodology so much as the lack of data on previous historical polities and the languages spoken by those people. This question posed by Mr. Atkinson perhaps needs to be defined a bit better, as the terminology is part of the issue. The difference concerns what scholars consider a language and what they consider a dialect. Leaving politics aside, most scholars at least pay lip service to the idea that a language is mutually unintelligible to another, while a dialect differs from another dialect in some vocabulary or morphology, but is still intelligible to speakers of a related dialect. A dialect is a handy word, because each dialect is thus a part of the language family. This is a helpful tool for national unity and what not. This basic definition of language and dialect, however, would turn many European *languages* into mere dialects, while many dialects in China would now become full-blown languages. And there's your problem. In Japan linguists call the Ryukyuan languages dialects, even though these are unintelligible to any mainland Japanese speaker. In fact, as a Ryukyuanist, I believe there are at least four 'languages' in the Ryukyus. But the term 'language' implies nationality, and that opens up a can of worms, so people agree to call Ryukyuan a set of dialects. I am not sure where Mr. Atkinson's friend came up with the number six, but if we stick to a basic linguistic definition of language, we may be able to claim anywhere from five to twenty languages on the peninsula during the three kingdom period. The problem is that some who make claims about what language was what on the peninsula are not being completely open and honest, as we have no written records *in the languages* of Paekche, Koguryo, Kaya (Kara), Silla, or peninsular Wa. So how do they know? I have written about the language of Paekche, and have provided information and etymology for roughly 80 words from the Paekche corpus (Bentley, New Look at Paekche Korean: data from Nihon shoki, Language Research (Ohak yon'gu), vol. 36.2, 417-443). But we have very little surviving data on morphology or syntax or other data that would help us see Paekche as a language, and not merely a list of words. My own work has suggested that Paekche and Silla were related 'languages', but that is simply a scholarly hypothesis, not a fact. I don't go around claiming that this is proven. Lately Chris Beckwith has come out with a very provocative book titled, Koguryo: the language of Japan's continental relatives (Brill 2004). It is not my intention to review the book here, but suffice it to say this relationship (the claim that Japanese is a Koguryo language) is based on the tenuous comparison of about 140 Koguryo etyma. To me this is like looking at the skin of an elephant through a microscope and trying to guess what the animal is. It is not impossible, mind you, just highly difficult, and requires great skill. Just to give one reservation I have with Beckwith's work: it bothers me to see his lack of knowledge about Japanese historical phonology (which forms half of this theory). Let me give just two examples. Beckwith reconstructs Proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan 'eye' as *mika or *miak (2004:157-58). This is based *entirely* on the Hateruma island word miN (N is a velar nasal) 'eye'. He sees the velar nasal going back to a velar -k. This is then compared with Old Chinese *mek 'eye' and Old Tibetan myig 'eye'. Gary Oyler, in 1997, did an MA thesis on the problem of -N in Hateruma, and concluded that the -N is secondary. It only occurs word finally, and there is no pattern to which words have the N and which do not. It is completely random. My own work has found this same phenomenon in Yonaguni, an island not far from Hateruma, but the N is attached to different nouns than those in Hateruma (so the development of this nasal was independent on the two islands). This velar nasal is simply a relic of morphology that the speakers have reanalyzed as part of the noun, kind of like American speakers spelling hafta (< have to), where they treat two original words as one. It *cannot* be reconstructed as part of the proto-form. The true etymology of 'eye' would be *ma-i or perhaps *ma-Ci. So Beckwith also has the vowels wrong. This destroys the comparison with Chinese and Tibetan. It is unclear why this etymology is brought up, as he has no Koguryo word for 'eye' in his database, unless this is simply an attempt to ultimately relate Japanese back to Chinese. Another problem is his grouping of homonyms. He reconstructs a Proto-Japanese form *tiu 'liquid' based on ti 'blood, milk' (2004:154). The accent for ti 'blood' and ti 'milk' are different, so I seriously doubt these two words have a common etymology. Also internal reconstruction suggests that 'blood' may go back to *to-i, while 'milk' goes back to an earlier *tu-i (cf. Sam Martin's Japanese Language Through Time, Yale Univ., 1987:545). Again, Beckwith provides this etymology to make a connection with Chinese, but as all his Chinese cognates have /i/ as the nuclear vowel, these etymologies also must be rejected. Thus, if Beckwith's grasp of Japanese historical phonology has serious weaknesses, then I am suspicious of his other conclusions. This does not mean his theory is wrong, mind you, but it has not solved the problem, in my opinion. I know others have claimed that Koguryo and Japanese may be related, and I do not intend to refute that claim. All I want is for the work to be well-grounded in the historical linguistic methodology (as well as phonology), and take account of what we already know about Japanese historical phonology and its development. It is sad there are so many who really do not understand the languages of Ryukyuan (but quote etyma from these languages as proof of X or Y), as these hold the key, I believe, to helping us better understand the relationship of Japonic (Japanese and Ryukyuan) to its neighbors. In the end, Mr. Atkinson should ask his friend who the source of this claim about a) the peninsula had six languages, and b) one migrated to Japan is. We should remember that while Chinese and peninsular records talk about the Wa, we do not even know what language the Wa spoke. It could have been Ryukyuan, or Western Japanese, Eastern Japanese, or Central Japanese. Or it could have been a language that eventually died out. There are so many yet-to-be- answered questions regarding this thorny debate. But that is probably what makes it so popular as a topic of dicussion. Best, John R. Bentley Northern Illinois University --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] 22nd Camarillo Mayor's Cup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The 22nd Camarillo Mayor's Cup TKD Chip Saturday, Aug 6 8:30 AM Oxnard College Gym 4000 S. Rose Ave Oxnard, CA 93030 Directed by Yong Shin trtkd@hotmail.com http://www.trtkd.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another group...Combat TKD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I got this from another group: anyone ever heard of Combat TKD? > > ToyGeek Combat TKD > One of the students showed me a tape with the Korean army practicing Combat > TKD, Those guys were pretty tough, and it is a world of difference from > American/Olympic style TKD, It' such a shame that that style is so watered > down at most( not all) of the schools out here in the states. I have not heard of the Korean military TKD as combat TKD, but perhaps what the Korean special forces do for PT is a hardened version of TKD mixed with Hapkido. ??? My understanding is that all Koreans going thru basic training are taught minimal TKD, but they each end up getting their 1st Dan. This training would probably only seem 'pretty tough' to someone that wasn't. There was a "Combat Taekwondo" headed up for a short while by, I think it was, Robert Ferguson. I believe he later dropped his Combat TKD idea and become the world's foremost authority on rape prevention, or so his marketing claimed. Ray "Am I always this negative?" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest