Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:56:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #248 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. re:master (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 2. RE: hmmmmmm..... (Master Mark Seidel) 3. RE: hmmmmmm..... (Jeff Yeagley) 4. Re: Bowing to flags (Ray) 5. multiple promotions (Tkdsid@aol.com) 6. RE: re:master (Rick Clark) 7. bowing (Darren and Elaine) 8. Re: bowing (Ray) 9. bowing (Darren and Elaine) 10. Re: bowing (Ray) 11. Website (Jye nigma) 12. Re: Hapkido for Children (ABurrese@aol.com) 13. Re: Bowing to Flags (ABurrese@aol.com) 14. From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:56:48 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net. Subject: [The_Dojang] re:master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > O.K. so what is a ''MASTER'' and what makes someone a master or someone else > not a master and if every one gets to be a master is it still special to be > one? Prof Clark would be a master but he insist that he is not, J.R. west is a > grand master and hates to be called one. so if you demand people call you > master you're not one and if you don't want to be called one you probably are one, > of course we are talking about high ranking individuals not 3rd and below. > just my humble two cents worth. > k carter --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] hmmmmmm..... Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:33:59 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why should this surprise anybody; the majority of schools in my area seem to promote a student every 2 months in a 10 belt color system with stripes and such and at an average of $50.00 ea. test, they are cranking out Black Belts in less than 2 years. Some schools turnover 100 students a year as they leave after they become BB. So if they are prospecting and marketing aggressively (after school, Black Belt Clubs) and home schoolers) they probably are enrolling over 100 students a year, after some attrition the rest show up for class pay their money and eventually become a Black Belt. One school in my town actually buys the Black Belt with the students name engraved on it when they join and hangs it on the wall as a dangling carrot that eventually, as long as the student stays, gets tied around their waste. At my school it is at bare minimum 5-7 years before anyone is ready to become a BB. Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: rich hodder [mailto:richhodder@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 3:46 PM To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] hmmmmmm..... I was at a near-by school yesterday, to get a couple of belts that didn't make my regular order. The gentleman that owns it has a large school and has a good supply of excess inventory. As we talked he asked a lot of innocuous questions but also provided information about his school. He has 107 (this is not a miss print) students testing for 1st Dan this weekend.......I find this incredible!!!! I have been teaching full time since 1984 and I haven't had that may people ready to test to Dan level in the entire time I have been teaching. Am I just slow, or is the BIG McDojang just here in Houston? Rich --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:32:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: hmmmmmm..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have been teaching full time since 1984 and I haven't had > that may people ready to test to Dan level in the entire time I have been > teaching. Am I just slow, or is the BIG McDojang just here in Houston? FWIW, I have been teaching at my own dojang since 1983, and have had thirteen students promoted to 1st dan. Of those, six have gone on to 2nd dan, and one to third. Kind regards, Jeff Yeagley Academy of Fighting Arts http://www.WeTrainHarder.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bowing to flags To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Honestly I've never seen anyone salute the flags in a martial arts class. > >From the description it sounds like the salute is the right hand placed over > the heart. Palm to your body or palm down? Just curious. Being a former > Army Reserve officer, I kind of like the idea of "Salute the flags, bow to > people". Plus, that may solve my problem. Right fist over left breast. Then complete the salute by sharply moving the right fist forward, to the front, of the chest about 6". Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:42:01 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] multiple promotions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I made first dan, 6 others were promoted that night. One guy was delayed by 2 months purposely, me and two others were accelerated by 3 months and one guy (Inactive for several months) was invited back to test. This timing was due to the fact that my masters Master was in town and his colleagues joined a testing board. I thought that this was somewhat borderline in ethics as I never thought I was ready in the first place, much less to be accelerated. BUT 107 in ONE Night???????? Holy crow! Sounds to me like he signed what I call black belt contracts. IN NY many masters guarantee a black belt in 2 years. If a student drops out he pays a penalty and if he tests later there is a surcharge. So that it isn't uncommon to see as many as 10 or 15 test in one day. 107 is definitly suspicious. Personally, I don't like scheduled testing. Test when someone is ready...but that's bad for business. Or do as some do now...test by mail as long as the check clears. Sid --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:57:33 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] re:master To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, As my name was mentioned - I'll toss in my 2 cents - "IF" and I stress "IF" I were to have to give a definition of what a "Master" would be then it would have to be a person who instructs or has instructed individuals to 4th dan (as that is the rank that has been considered to just below that of a master instructor). When that student reaches 5th dan then their instructor would be a "Grand Master" because they would have a student that was a 5th dan an thus considered a "master instructor". But - I still in the dochang or dojo I prefer Mr. Clark, Sabom Nim, Sensei, Shifu, Prof. to "master" :-) If we are out having a meal or a drink Rick is just fine with me. Just a personal preference . . . . . . Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com [mailto:Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com] >Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:57 AM >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net. >Subject: [The_Dojang] re:master > > >> O.K. so what is a ''MASTER'' and what makes someone a master or >> someone >else >> not a master and if every one gets to be a master is it >still special >> to be >> one? Prof Clark would be a master but he insist that he is >not, J.R. west >is a >> grand master and hates to be called one. so if you demand >people call >> you >> master you're not one and if you don't want to be called one >you probably >are one, >> of course we are talking about high ranking individuals not 3rd and >> below. >> just my humble two cents worth. >> k carter >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 16:17:08 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all this is the first reply I have sent in and feel I must do this. The matter of bowing to flags, people, pictures ect its all about respect not religion or following a cult I practice and teach Kuk Sool Won in the U.K. we start and finish with kneeling bows to national flags association flag and picture of GM Suh and bows to instructors this is the martial arts way. Phew got that out. Yours in martial arts Darren --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] bowing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The matter of bowing to flags, people, pictures ect its all about respect not > religion or following a cult I practice and teach Kuk Sool Won in the U.K. we > start and finish with kneeling bows to national flags association flag and > picture of GM Suh and bows to instructors this is the martial arts way. Good input on how things are done in KSW. But that is not -the- martial arts way. There are a great many martial arts and more than a few of them have no bowing, and more have no kneeling as part of any opening or closing ceremony. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:04:38 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Ray. I am sorry to say the opposite I have witnessed kneeling bows in Judo Karate Taekwondo Aikido Kick boxing just to mention a few. Darren --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] bowing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am sorry to say the opposite I have witnessed kneeling bows in Judo Karate > Taekwondo Aikido Kick boxing just to mention a few. I have not seen kneeling bows in Judo or Karate or much in Taekwondo. But I suspect you can easily find it. For sure have not seen it in Eskrima/Kali/Arnis or Capoerira or Krav Maga or Silat or Savate or Wing Chun or Tai Chi or Sambo or [insert long list here]. fwiw Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:08:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, csemt@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Website Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.calasanz.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:14:18 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido for Children Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I taught them the same things the adults learned, including every throw, >>joint lock, pin, etc. It is just that the teaching method is COMPLETELY >>different. >> >>Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND >>www.hapkidoselfdefense.com That's just how it is done in Korea with the Hapkido schools I train at there. Which by the way, I'll be visiting in a couple months. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:24:49 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bowing to Flags Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Regarding bowing to flags, I have seen this in the states, but I do not do it, and we did not do it in Korea. We saluted the flag, never bowed to it. When I told my instructor that some in America bow to the flag, he said that was wrong and you don't bow to flags. In Korea, there was a Korean flag on the wall. We saluted the flag by placing the right hand over the heart with the palm down. We bowed to people. The difference in class, as with just regular bowing to people that you do all the time living in Korea and Japan, is that in class when we bowed we placed our right fist into our left hand as we bowed and we said Hap Ki. We bowed to the instructor and saluted the flag before and after class. At the end of the class, we also bowed to the lead student representing bowing to all students, and we also bowed to our partner before and after practicing hoshinsul techniques. Each time saying Hap Ki as we bowed. I teach the same here in the States, although we only have an American flag hanging right now. We used to have both, and I don't have a problem saluting a Korean flag. To me it is a sign of respect, and I do respect Korea as the country Hapkido comes from, and as a country I have come to love as a second home, and in fact it is the first home of my wife. As for aliegence, that is to The United States of America, that is my country and the country I served when in the military. People put to much into things sometimes. Me saluting the Korean flag is a sign of respect, that's it. Bowing to anyone is a sign of respect. Just as my students bow to me after class, I bow to them. I respect students just as they should respect their instructor. They bow to each other because they need to respect the fellow students they are training with. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, martialstudies@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kwan Jyel Sul by Grand Master James S. Benko, Ph.D. History of Kwan Jyel Sul There are no records which indicate exactly when kwan jyel sul (joint manipulation techniques) were first used. There is little doubt that there are many isolated examples of individuals using kwan jyel techniques. However, kwan jyel sul, as either a method of self-defense or a means of healing, can be traced back to Buddhist monks of India. Though many different countries practice some form of kwan jyel sul today, I shall direct my attention to the major uses of kwan jyel techniques of ancient times and today. The development of kwan jyel sul is closely related to the creation of acupuncture and the healing arts, and the arts of self-defense. It is generally accepted that the idea of acupuncture began about 2698 BC. This is when the book titled, The Emperor's Internal Book, was written. Acupuncture is an oriental system of medicine in which needles are placed at different points in the body in order to help cure illnesses, relieve pain and stimulate the normal balance within the body. Part of learning the art of acupuncture was the practice of acupressure. Acupressure deals with curing medical problems such as pain, which can be caused by many things including; pinched nerves, dislocated bones, and sore muscles. In order to help cure those who needed medical treatment, the monks used kwan jyel sul. The techniques used to help cure people were part of the healing methods which involved the manipulation of the joints. If a person had a pinched nerved in his arm, the monks would apply pressure to different portions of the spine as they manipulated it in different directions. Dislocated joints, such as elbows, were helped by re-setting the elbow by rotating and pulling on the arm until the joint was set properly. Headaches were cured by kwan jyel neck manipulation techniques. The manipulation of the joints, as the monks learned, worked not only the joints themselves, but the muscles, tendons, blood vessels, and nerves, all at the same time. The monks, with their vast knowledge of human anatomy through research in this area, were able to adapt this knowledge to their methods of self-defense. They learned how to use the joints to control an opponent. They used their kwan jyel sul for defending the monasteries. They also used their self-defense techniques to protect themselves from bandits and wild animals on their travels throughout the country. As the monks traveled to different countries, they took with them their knowledge of kwan jyel sul. They spread these techniques and principles to China, Korea, and Japan. Kwan jyel sul took on other names, such as Chin-Na in China. Kwan jyel techniques were used by the military for defending their countries and driving off invaders. Many styles incorporate the use of kwan jyel sul as part of their training. The guards were not allowed to use weapons on the palace grounds unless it became absolutely necessary. Therefore, they would rely heavily on their knowledge of kwan jyel sul, which was taught to them primarily by the Korean Buddhist monks. Any intruder who happened to venture onto the palace grounds quickly found himself on the receiving end of a kwan jyel technique. Some of the women who attended to the needs of the ladies of the Korean royal court were also trained in the art of Koong Jong Mu Do, and thus, kwan jyel sul. In addition to their regular duties, these women were actually the bodyguards of the members of the royal court. They would gladly give up their lives for their lord or lady. It was not uncommon for Korean noblemen to surround themselves with beautiful women servants. In actuality, these noblemen were protected by the most attractive but deadly bodyguards one could imagine. Though pleasing to the eye, these young women could easily dispatch anyone who threatened the safety of their lord or lady. Their knowledge of kwan jyel sul gave them the ability to neutralize an opponent with the use of little force. The famed Hwa Rang warriors of the ancient Korean Kingdom of Silla were also well versed in the use of kwan jyel sul. The Hwa Rang was a group of young warriors who, during the period when Korea was divided into three different Kingdoms, became a main instrument in the victories of the Kingdom of Silla over the other two neighboring Kingdoms. Through their valiant efforts, they unified the Three Kingdoms and created one nation. Kwan jyel sul was one of the most important aspects of the Hwa Rang's training. Won Kang taught many different forms of defense to the Hwa Rang including the use of kwan jyel sul (joint manipulation techniques), and hyel do sul (vital point techniques), plus how to use ji pang e sul (cane techniques), as well as a variety of different weapons. They learned how, by manipulating the joints, they were able to expose the hyel do points of their opponent and terminate him. They were taught how to position the joints so the opponent would be paralyzed. They were also taught how to heal their wounds through their knowledge of both Kwan Jyel Sul and acupressure. Many of the soldiers who trained under their Hwa Rang leaders also learned some kwan jyel sul. There are those who claim only the Hwa Rang were taught kwan jyel sul and not the regular troops. This is not true! Many troops were trained by their Hwa Rang leaders or by other specially trained officers whose responsibility it was to train their men for battle. Though the average soldier did not have an extensive knowledge of kwan jyel sul, they did however have some knowledge of kwan jyel techniques. After leaving the military, or being transferred to another location, they began teaching others the self-defense arts they had learned, including the use of kwan jyel techniques. Thus, Kwan Jyel Sul continued to expand and develop as the martial arts and Buddhism spread. As you can see, wherever you found the martial arts, you found Kwan Jyel techniques. Wherever a Buddhist monastery was erected the techniques of kwan jyel continued to evolve and develop. China also used kwan jyel sul in their military arts of self-defense and in the healing arts. Their country uses the term chin-na. It deals not only with the physical principles of joint manipulation but with the concept of Chi (pronounced chee). Chi (Gi "Gee" in Korean, Ki "Kee" in Japanese), is our life energy. Without it we would die. Our body is filled with Chi which is continuously entering and leaving our body as we exert energy, either through physical activity or mental activity. Chi enters our bodies through the air we breath and the food we eat. If an imbalance occurs in our chi, we become sick. If we fail to correct the imbalance and it grows worse, we could die. Using the meridians (paths which Chi follows throughout our bodies), the Chinese were able to execute kwan jyel sul and control their opponent or inflict damage upon their enemy either instantaneously or delay the opponent's reaction until a much later time. The techniques of kwan jyel sul used in Chinese chin na are, if studied for a long period of time, quite effective. Kwan jyel sul can also be found in Japan. It was used by the infamous Japanese ninja. They developed kwan jyel techniques to a fine art and used them with extreme effectiveness and deadly cunning. Kwan jyel sul flowed into almost every form of martial arts of Japan. It can be found being taught to the Japanese military and the police. The Japanese marital arts of aikido, and jujitsu rely to a great degree on kwan jyel techniques. Kwan jyel sul can be found in almost all forms of the martial arts; in China: chin-na, and other styles of the Chinese fighting arts. In Japan: aikido, karate, jujitsu, judo, and ninjitsu. In Korea: TaeKwon-Do, hapkido, hwa rang do, yudo, kuk sool won, yu sool, and many other Korean styles. Kwan jyel sul helps doctors cure the ill, law enforcement personal apprehend criminals, and individuals defend their family and loved-ones. We all use it in everyday life. Most of us, without thinking about it, or some who do not realize it at all. Kwan Jyel Sul has always been a part of something else, never something which was recognized as being as important as it really is to all of us. The history of Kwan Jyel Sul shows without a doubt that kwan jyel sul is indeed useful and necessary for all who practice the arts of healing or self-defense. The Principles of Kwan Jyel Sul In order to practice Kwan Jyel Sul (Joint Manipulation Techniques), you must learn the Principles of Kwan Jyel Sul. The principles, when applied properly, are what insure your techniques are applicable. If you do not employ the principles when constructing and creating your Kwan Jyel techniques, then the techniques will lack power, accuracy and practicality. Study the principles of Kwan Jyel Sul carefully. Commit them to memory and use them for analyzing all of your Kwan Jyel Sul and self-defense techniques. There are six principles of Kwan Jyel Sul. The six principles of kwan jyel sul are: Manipulation of the Joints. Controlling the Muscles. Regulating the Breathing. Restraining the Blood. Direction of Force. Body Reaction. All six of these principles are interrelated. They flow from one to the other until the techniques develop themselves through almost every movement you or the opponent makes. Remember, let a "qualified" instructor guide you in your studies of Kwan Jyel Sul. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest