Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:08:20 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #251 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: "Masters"??? (Master Mark Seidel) 2. RE: From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul (John-Lewis Lewis) 3. Re: Looking for advice (kevin_janisse@comcast.net) 4. Re: Looking for a little advice (Martin Von Cannon) 5. To Bruce on titles (Wayne Watkins) 6. Re: Looking for a little advice (tim walker) 7. kicking hats (David Weller) 8. Re: RE: From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul (Jye nigma) 9. Re: To Bruce on titles (Dante James) 10. Re: kicking hats (Craig Zeigler) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] "Masters"??? Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:26:08 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Respect for ones knowledge and achievement, I have been called Mr. Master Sensei, Sabumnim; just don't call me late for dinner:) Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:03 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Masters"??? Very possibly I may be missing something obvious. Its been known to happen. But I am not sure I am following this exchange about "Masters". Who exactly is it that is invested in these titles. I ask because each time this discussion comes up people usually disclaim their comments by pointing out that they themselves are not invested in such titles. OK. Then why are we having this discussion? I don't mean "stop discussing". What I mean is, how is it that these titles continue to exist if nobody is actually invested in using them? WHO is using these titles and WHY do they feel the need to use these titles? In my own case, I don't want and I don't need a title to tell me what I am about. I CAN say that GM Myung has been addressed as "GM" for years and I have no authority to deny him that ettiquette or respect. JR and Rudy have conducted themselves in such a fashion in the Hapkido community that-- like it or not--- they get addressed as Master Timmerman or Master West and I think they have given-up arguing with me about it. This still doesn't answer the question though. WHO is it that requires these titles and WHY are they requiring them? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "John-Lewis Lewis" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:23:51 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I haven't found Kwan Jyel Sul in Taekwondo. Where is it? Perhaps in the poomsae? regards, John Lewis. >Message: 14 >Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:37:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jye nigma >To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, > martialstudies@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [The_Dojang] From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Kwan jyel sul can be found in almost all forms of the martial arts; in >China: chin-na, and other styles >of the Chinese fighting arts. In Japan: >aikido, karate, jujitsu, judo, and ninjitsu. In Korea: TaeKwon->Do, >hapkido, hwa rang do, yudo, kuk sool won, yu sool, and many other Korean >styles. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: kevin_janisse@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:50:18 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Looking for advice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Craig, I also have encountered many BB factories and have this to share with you: If you would like to discuss quality standards with the school owner I would suggest you do it in a discreet way. Try walking in as a potential student (if he does not know you) and discuss with him what he expects out of his students, time between testing, requirements, ect. If a question arrises about how quickly students can reach BB try adding a comparision of another school. Discuss your experience with the student you mentioned. Maybe he/she might get the idea without feeling threatened. In this day and age we are dealing with peoples income producer to keep food in their mouths and a roof over their head. What once may have started as a traditional teacher may have changed to a "I am starving and need more students" teacher. It would be nice if there was a quality standard that everyone would adhere to but then who would set it and enforce it (Go for it Bruce...lol). Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 06:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Looking for a little advice From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This sounds like you are in a real pickle. You did leave the school for your reasons and they sound justified. With that in mind, I don't think I would have allowed "the kid" to have used me as a demonstration partner. In this case, I would let it go. It seems that talking to the instructor would lead to nothing ("this school turned out to be a black belt factory"). This says to me the instructor would not really care. Talking to the student would only show him there is more to the Martial Arts then what he knows. This would, hopefully, open his eyes and give him courage to leave and find a reputable instructor. Also, you knew the type of student he was before you let him try it. Just my opinion. -- Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang A Black Belt is more than something you wear. It's more than something you earn. A Black Belt is something you become. > I have a bit of dilemma that I"m not sure how to deal with or even if I > should. > > Last night, I encountered someone from my old TKD school who after some > pleasant conversation joined my friends and myself. After about 15 > minutes to talking, he decided he was going to try to kick the hat from > my head. Consequently he missed and kicked me in the face, but > thankfully he didn't hurt anything. This young person is a 1st Dan of > perhaps 15-16 years of age. > > He does not possess the skill, self-control, or many of the other > characteristics of that rank, and I'm not sure how I should deal with > this. I am also a 1st Dan but left that school because the instructor > didn't teach any of the philosophy, self-restraint, or a large number of > other aspects that I felt were important for a higher ranking student. > To make a long story short, this school turned out to be a black belt > factory. > > Anyway, I"m not sure how I should deal with this. Should I have a > conversation with the instructor, or simply let it go. I'd like to think > having a conversation with the instructor would have something > productive come out of it, but I get the feeling it may fall on deaf > ears, and I may end up insulting a person I respect even though I don't > entirely agree with his teachings. > > Any suggestions would be helpful. > > With Respect, > > Craig --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:22:22 -0500 From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] To Bruce on titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce to add to the confusion or maybe answer your question. We all know how Mr. West feels about titles. On June 20, 2005 Dr Kimm presented a new desk nameplate to him and informed all present that Mr. West had earned the title and hereafter his was to be addressed as Grandmaster West. Was this something GM West asked for or wanted? No, but out of honor for Dr. Kimm, his teacher and mentor for 30+ years, he will accept the gift and title. Knowing how he feels about titles, what will we his students do? We will address him as Grandmaster, out of respect for Dr. Kimm. Before the group left on the trip I heard GM West make the statement "I have students that are Masters but I'm just a beginner that has been at it a long time" Learning to accept a title like this is a learning and growing experience in itself. Let there be no confusion though there is a lot of difference in "Earning" a title and "Assuming" a title. Just my $0.02 Wayne Watkins [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:45:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Looking for a little advice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> You should have dealt with it while he had one leg way up in the air... timo "Carpe Momentum" --__--__-- Message: 7 From: David Weller Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:54:20 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kicking hats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Zeigler, If I were in your position I would let it go. Write it off to a 15 - 16 year old hormonal imbalance and move on. It's not worth getting yourself, or anyone else, in a lather over. Kids do stupid impulsive stuff (some adults do too), and unless it was an egregious act of some sort your time is better spent working up a sweat in the gym. that's my penny's worth dave weller On Jun 14, 2005, at 8:18 AM,Craig Zeigler wrote: > > I have a bit of dilemma that I"m not sure how to deal with or even if I > should. > > .................... decided he was going to try to kick the hat from > my head. Consequently he missed and kicked me in the face, but > thankfully he didn't hurt anything. This young person is a 1st Dan of > perhaps 15-16 years of age. > > He does not possess the skill, self-control, or many of the other > characteristics of that rank, and I'm not sure how I should deal with > this.......... > ..................................................................... > Should I have a > conversation with the instructor, or simply let it go. I'd like to > think > having a conversation with the instructor would have something > productive come out of it, but I get the feeling it may fall on deaf > ears, and I may end up insulting a person I respect even though I don't > entirely agree with his teachings. > > Any suggestions would be helpful. > > With Respect, > > Craig --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 09:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: From an article: Kwan Jyel Sul To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net in your self defense drills. Jye John-Lewis Lewis wrote: I haven't found Kwan Jyel Sul in Taekwondo. Where is it? Perhaps in the poomsae? regards, John Lewis. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dante James" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] To Bruce on titles Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:29:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Watkins, Nicely put. Unfortunately sometimes, as in the military, one learns how to respect the rank and not the idividual. It's nice to be able to have someone such as GM West, and absolutely respect both. Peace Dante Dante J. James, Esq. www.denverata.com www.kimartialarts.com Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Watkins" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:22 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] To Bruce on titles > Bruce to add to the confusion or maybe answer your question. > > We all know how Mr. West feels about titles. On June 20, 2005 Dr Kimm > presented a new desk nameplate to him and informed all present that Mr. > West > had earned the title and hereafter his was to be addressed as Grandmaster > West. Was this something GM West asked for or wanted? No, but out of > honor > for Dr. Kimm, his teacher and mentor for 30+ years, he will accept the > gift > and title. > > Knowing how he feels about titles, what will we his students do? We will > address him as Grandmaster, out of respect for Dr. Kimm. > > Before the group left on the trip I heard GM West make the statement "I > have > students that are Masters but I'm just a beginner that has been at it a > long > time" > > Learning to accept a title like this is a learning and growing experience > in > itself. > > Let there be no confusion though there is a lot of difference in "Earning" > a > title and "Assuming" a title. > > Just my $0.02 > > Wayne Watkins > > [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had > a name of winmail.dat] > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:39:21 -0400 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] kicking hats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net David Weller wrote: > Mr. Zeigler, > > If I were in your position I would let it go. > Write it off to a 15 - 16 year old hormonal imbalance and move on. > It's not worth getting yourself, or anyone else, in a lather over. > Kids do stupid impulsive stuff (some adults do too), and unless it was > an egregious act of some sort your time is better spent working up a > sweat in the gym. > > that's my penny's worth > > dave weller > > > On Jun 14, 2005, at 8:18 AM,Craig Zeigler wrote: > >> >> I have a bit of dilemma that I"m not sure how to deal with or even if I >> should. >> >> .................... decided he was going to try to kick the hat from >> my head. Consequently he missed and kicked me in the face, but >> thankfully he didn't hurt anything. This young person is a 1st Dan of >> perhaps 15-16 years of age. >> >> He does not possess the skill, self-control, or many of the other >> characteristics of that rank, and I'm not sure how I should deal with >> this.......... >> ..................................................................... >> Should I have a >> conversation with the instructor, or simply let it go. I'd like to think >> having a conversation with the instructor would have something >> productive come out of it, but I get the feeling it may fall on deaf >> ears, and I may end up insulting a person I respect even though I don't >> entirely agree with his teachings. >> >> Any suggestions would be helpful. >> >> With Respect, >> >> Craig > > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > Thank you all for your advice. After some reflection, I think I'll just leave it go since many ofyou are correct in that I don't think it would do any good, and might even end up causing more trouble. Also, my first reaction was to hit the kid back since he was there and is rib cage was wide open, but I was origionally taught that slf restraint is paramount, and managed to resiste the instinct to teach him a lesson. As I am currently without a school, and practicing on my own, I will be looking for a new school in the near furture. From this experience I have learned to be a great deal more selective. Since Chung Do Kwan isn't taught withing 100 miles of where I live, I'm going to have to expand into a different style. Thank you again, -Craig --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest