Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 14:46:00 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #255 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. "Masters"- 'Don't ask; don't tell'??? (Bruce Sims) 2. Masters (Howard Kicks) 3. RE: Rick Clark, Dana, et al (Rick Clark) 4. Thoughts on Masters... (john wedow) 5. Re: "Masters"- 'Don't ask; don't tell'??? (Edward Peters, III) 6. Titles (Master Mac) 7. Writers (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 8. Youth Hapkidoin (Charles Richards) 9. RE: Writers (Rick Clark) 10. Re: Low Blocks (brent b) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:49:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] "Masters"- 'Don't ask; don't tell'??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a quick thought as long as people wanted to talk about the nature of being a "Master". Ques: If a people takes unto himself a title such as "master" or "grandmaster" and makes it known that he/she expects to be addressed as such, need that person be expected to provide a rationale for this? What would such rationale be, I wonder? By way of extension.... Ques: If a person has taken to himself a title--- or even had it bestowed by an organization-- and then conducts themselves in a manner that brings discredit on their art/organization, do they lose the privelege of using that title? As I write this I remember a discussion sometime back about whether or not people could actually have a BB rank "taken away" for bad behavior. Thoughts, anyone? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Howard Kicks" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:59:23 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >and those that insist on having Master or Grandmaster as part of their name >or 'signature'. Amen to that Master Terry. HK _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:40:05 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rick Clark, Dana, et al To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: tkdsid@aol.com [mailto:tkdsid@aol.com] > >To all the naysayers that say its impossible to regulate >martial arts, I submit this. Korea, China, Japan, Australia, >Malaysia etc. And this is good? Hummmmmm the head of the Kukkiwon was some political hack that ripped off money and is now sitting in prison. The guy was not even a black belt but people wanted his signature on their certificate to assure people that they were honest to god black belts recognized by some Korean who has been shown to be a crook. Look at the abuse that has been reported on this list from people paying for certificates and not getting them. Ask people from Australia if the government regulations on the martial arts has cut down the frauds. The UK has government regulations as well - from what I have seen and heard there are problems there as well. > ALL regulate martial arts. They said >Universities and law schools couldn't be regulated in this >country. They also said its impossible to have a US currency. There is a HUGE difference between law schools, universities, and a single currency. >No, its not impossible at all. Can laws be enacted? Of course BUT is it in the best interest of the martial arts and those involved in the martial arts? Not from what I have seen, to show a bit of my political leaning - can you show me anything that the government does and does efficiently? As an example the postal service was the primary delivery service for years - but look how UPS and others have stepped in and are doing a better job at a lower price. There are some things that the government should do and can not be done by individuals BUT to my way of thinking the best government is that which governs the least. > Each college is different, but all have minimum standards. Sure but look how individuals profit individually from teaching and running martial arts organizations. Money and power control the actions of many, how much more do you think would occur when some individual group could gain control nationally by the passing of a law? > Accredited colleges recognize each >others degrees. So what's the problem? Here's the issue and >there is ONLY one issue. Things aren't bad enough yet. There >haven't been enough people ripped off, enough kids abused, >enough serious injuries in the dojangs and dojos of America. >When that happens and the law suits mount, then and only then >will there be regulation. Then we will have a definition for >Master and Grand Master. How much more of a rip off was this crook in Korea? Not only have there been problems in Korea but here in the US. I don't follow the corruption threads a lot but then as I remember there has been corruption in the USTU and AAU (if I am mistaken in my memory I apologize in advance). >Until then, silly men will invent >dans, there own styles and continue the nonsense we have >today. Another reason we don't have regulation is that many >fear there schools will close and they will Because there are abuses on an individual level and they are confined to local levels, thus fewer people. When you have organizations that are national and international and government controlled then when they abuse, are corrupt, or take money for their own profit it hurts the martial arts on a larger scale. > >Sid Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "john wedow" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:26:15 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thoughts on Masters... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Quoting Frank Clay, ".....First there is no Korean term such as Master nor Grandmaster. These are western renditions, or better approximations of Asiatic concepts." Just thought that point should be reinforced. If it could be painted across the sky for americans to see, then arrogant windbags would lose some of their power over an unsuspecting public. A further point. I don't think the martial arts have the luxury of sports coaches, in that sports coaches aren't required to be in decent physical shape. Instuctors of martial arts have a responsibility to uphold a standard of skill for the next generation, and to be decent examples of what training in martial arts does to you. I guess I got carried away, I just wish there were less "masters" who insist that their considerable knowledge of martial technique and philosophy make up for their physical clumsiness. Just being honest, John _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:40:42 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] "Masters"- 'Don't ask; don't tell'??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net this whole thread about Masters titles really reminds me of an episode of Seinfeld. Jerry meets a friend (I think of Elaine's) who conducts for the orchestra. The guy insists on being called Maestro. The whole episode Jerry refuses to call the guy Maestro. What if someone says they should be called Master and they in fact aren't any good at martial arts. Shouldn't people have to prove there mastery, everyday, in the town square, against a gang of thugs. Does anyone know if there is, in KMA, a definition of master. Is it mastery over a thing, or over the person using the term. Meaning, he is a master of.... or He is my master? Bruce Sims wrote: >I had a quick thought as long as people wanted to talk about the >nature of being a "Master". > >Ques: If a people takes unto himself a title such as "master" or >"grandmaster" and makes it known that he/she expects to be >addressed as such, need that person be expected to provide >a rationale for this? What would such rationale be, I wonder? --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:55:18 -0500 From: Master Mac To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Gorden reminded me of something. I always introduce myself as Dennis or Dennis McHenry. When I call a student or talk to their parents, they seem clue less who's calling when I say my name - I have to say "Master McHenry" or they don't know who I am :-) Does seem slightly embarrasing to 'have' to use a title when talking to people on the phone. Same thing happens with my riding buddies - I introduce myself as Dennis, but they know me by my road name that was given to me .... Master Mac. {shrug} Sometimes you just can't get away from it. Later, Mac * I guess I do help confuse people by signing my emails and posts "Mac" :-) --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 16:20:26 +0100 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Writers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick wrote: "Thanks for the purchase and for the kind words, I appreciated it. Too often we only hear the negative stuff and we don't always hear the "nice" stuff - it's nice to hear when people have enjoyed the effort you put into a book or other project. I have gained a whole new respect level for people who write, and for those that do it as their living." I tried to write a book once but I couldn't keep a point on my crayon, so kudos to those who can do it, especially if they can get me thinking without the aid of a big stick. Bear --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Youth Hapkidoin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have seen first hand both Master James Allison's and Master West's Poom level students and have observed Master Allison teaching youth beginners. Never seen or heard any history of injuries and have been on the mat with some of their 14 year old students with 4-8 years of experience that are both talented and knowledgeable. MC --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:42:29 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Writers To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bear, >From: john.a.mcintosh@bt.com [mailto:john.a.mcintosh@bt.com] >Rick wrote: >"Thanks for the purchase and for the kind words, I appreciated >it. Too often we only hear the negative stuff and we don't >always hear the "nice" stuff - it's nice to hear when people >have enjoyed the effort you put into a book or other project. >I have gained a whole new respect level for people who write, >and for those that do it as their living." > >I tried to write a book once but I couldn't keep a point on my >crayon, so kudos to those who can do it, especially if they >can get me thinking without the aid of a big stick. > >Bear LOL ! Try a computer next time, it's a lot better than an old typewriter :-) I am glad the book got you to think, for me that is one of the most important things a teacher, mentor, author whatever can get a person to do. When I taught a class in Research Methodology in the Criminology Dept. at Indiana State University, the following was one of my rants. Critical analysis of information that is presented to you is so important. To simply take information in and hold it as gospel is such a big mistake. Who is giving the information, what is their agenda, what are their sources of information, is it biased, if so why - the list goes on and on. But as you might guess that is a pet peeve of mine :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: brent b To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Low Blocks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bear, Good catch. I was wondering if anyone was paying attention. I like working with Mr. Clark. He allowed me to take my art where it is today, which is a heck of a lot furhter than where it was before training with him - "You mean you can be hitting someone with that technique, not just be blocking a low block?" But if you ask him about pheasant hunting, all he does is lie! It's all lie I tell you. Brent the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: -- __--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 15:34:58 +0100 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Low Blocks or not? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brent wrote: "Oh - Believe it or not, a low block is not just to block a front kick. There must be at least 74 other applications for this move." Would this be a subtle allusion to the book "75 Down Blocks: Refining Karate Technique" by our very own Rick Clark (good book, enjoyed it a lot and learned a lot more). Bear --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest