Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:22:17 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #256 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Chang Hun = Shotokan (was Stuff along the way) (Christopher Spiller) 2. masters (Darren and Elaine) 3. masters (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 4. Government regualtion of martial arts (Tkdsid@aol.com) 5. Governemnt Regulations on MA (Damian Adams) 6. RE: Re: Low Blocks (Rick Clark) 7. re: Master (Stuart Rosenberg) 8. Video clip: Russian martial art (Jye nigma) 9. Video Clips: Russian martial arts (Jye nigma) 10. KOREAN MASTERS SEMINAR (Fred Gommels) 11. Goverment Issued (Patrick Williams) 12. Re: Chang Hun = Shotokan (was Stuff along the way) (Nathan Miller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chang Hun = Shotokan (was Stuff along the way) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grand Master West stated: > I also wasn't aware that the Chang Han ( > Cheonji, TanGun, DoSan, etc, ) > forms were Shotokan. This statement brings up a question I have long had to those who make this claim: IN WHAT WAY are the Chang Hun tul Shotokan karate? I have seen Shotokan karate demonstrated, although I have never trained in it myself. I *have* trained in Taekwon-Do under ITF and Kukki/WTF instructors for the past 19 years. There are some Chang Hun tuls that contain specific sets of techniques that are the same or very close to the same sets as some Shotokan forms. Obviously an example of Gen. Choi making good use of his Shotokan background. But even in these patterns (and there are only two I can think of off hand, although there could very well be more) it's only a partial adaptation, not a matter of taking an entire pattern from karate and putting into the Taekwon-Do curriculum like in Tang Soo Do where there are entire karate patterns taken over. The first edition of the General's book does contain Shotokan patterns in it, of course. However, they are specified as "the Sho-Rin and Sho-Rei Schools" whereas the Chang Hun tul are specified as such. Additionally, the actual execution of techniques much more closely resembled Shotokan when I was training in the WTF variety of Taekwon-Do for two years. CHambers for blocks, movement, generation of power, etc. were much *closer* to what I had seen in Shotokan than in the Chang Hun/ITF schools I've been to, but even there it wasn't the *same* (especially in the development of sparring techniques, of course). I certainly recognize the influence of Shotokan on Taekwon-Do in general and the Chang Hun tul specifically. But IMNSHO to equate one to the other is simply wrong (and I am *not* saying that GM West is doing this! :-). Taekwon (or is that Shotokan?), Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:55:57 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good point John too many arm chair masters!!!!! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:09:44 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] masters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ... the question still remains, who is it that > continues to make such a pointed issue about titles? Bruce, that would seem to be you... and those that insist on having Master or Grandmaster as part of their name or 'signature'. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com I would like to add those who answer the phone as Master so in so or have their wives refer to them as Master so in so in conversation, you laugh but i have had the extreme displeasure of meeting these'' Masters'' . I have the great pleasure of training with Prof . Clark and Master J.R West and the two of them are the real deal,So are the students of these great teachers hopefully one of these days i will be half the martial artist they are and half as humble, We are taught by example and not what we are expected to do these are fine examples. k carter --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:52:55 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Government regualtion of martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:40:05 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Rick Clark, Dana, et al To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: tkdsid@aol.com [mailto:tkdsid@aol.com] > >To all the naysayers that say its impossible to regulate >martial arts, I submit this. Korea, China, Japan, Australia, >Malaysia etc. And this is good? Hummmmmm the head of the Kukkiwon was some political hack that ripped off money and is now sitting in prison. The guy was not even a black belt but people wanted his signature on their certificate to assure people that they were honest to god black belts recognized by some Korean who has been shown to be a crook. Look at the abuse that has been reported on this list from people paying for certificates and not getting them. Even though Kim was a crook, what developed was an international system of taekwondo registration. Certainly that outweighs the corrupt actions of one man. Besides he WAS a black belt. In addition, he was replaced with an honest man and the kukkiwon lives on. Glitches do take place but the standardization was worth it. I too was ripped off, hopefully this won't happen again. People get ripped off every day of the week from private people. Ask people from Australia if the government regulations on the martial arts has cut down the frauds. The UK has government regulations as well - from what I have seen and heard there are problems there as well. Are these problems worse than each school doing their own thing? > ALL regulate martial arts. They said >Universities and law schools couldn't be regulated in this >country. They also said its impossible to have a US currency. There is a HUGE difference between law schools, universities, and a single currency. >No, its not impossible at all. Can laws be enacted? Of course BUT is it in the best interest of the martial arts and those involved in the martial arts? YES!Not from what I have seen, to show a bit of my political leaning - can you show me anything that the government does and does efficiently? The military, the IRS, national defense, representative government..shall I go on?? As an example the postal service was the primary delivery service for years - but look how UPS and others have stepped in and are doing a better job at a lower price. Sure..but on a far smaller scale. National Postal Service works extraordinarily well all things considered.There are some things that the government should do and can not be done by individuals BUT to my way of thinking the best government is that which governs the least. > Each college is different, but all have minimum standards. Sure but look how individuals profit individually from teaching and running martial arts organizations. Money and power control the actions of many, how much more do you think would occur when some individual group could gain control nationally by the passing of a law? Unclear statement here. But money and power also leads to flow of goods and services so that the system could survive. > Accredited colleges recognize each >others degrees. So what's the problem? Here's the issue and >there is ONLY one issue. Things aren't bad enough yet. There >haven't been enough people ripped off, enough kids abused, >enough serious injuries in the dojangs and dojos of America. >When that happens and the law suits mount, then and only then >will there be regulation. Then we will have a definition for >Master and Grand Master. How much more of a rip off was this crook in Korea?Kim stole about $4 million . I don't minimize that, but there is more ripoff in NY and New Jersey on a monthly basis in martial arts. In Queens NY one guy took kukkiwon fees and never handed them in on 30 students. thats $15,000 for one small operator. Are you kidding me??? Millions and millions are stolen now. Not only have there been problems in Korea but here in the US. I don't follow the corruption threads a lot but then as I remember there has been corruption in the USTU and AAU (if I am mistaken in my memory I apologize in advance). >Until then, silly men will invent >dans, there own styles and continue the nonsense we have >today. Another reason we don't have regulation is that many >fear there schools will close and they will Because there are abuses on an individual level and they are confined to local levels, thus fewer people. When you have organizations that are national and international and government controlled then when they abuse, are corrupt, or take money for their own profit it hurts the martial arts on a larger scale. > >Sid Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:29:34 +0930 From: Damian Adams To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Governemnt Regulations on MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: tkdsid@aol.com [mailto:tkdsid@aol.com] > >To all the naysayers that say its impossible to regulate >martial arts, I submit this. Korea, China, Japan, Australia, >Malaysia etc. Anybody else in Australia know how we regulate the MA's as I certainly am unsure? Not saying that we don't have it, I just want to find out more. I know here in South Australia we have a public servant who has a responsibility into looking into the MA's, however, this appears to be more from a sporting/contest aspect. I have seen this person once at a state taekwondo tournament. I know for a fact that we do not have to be registered with any government body or an organisation and have bona fide credentials. While for instance if you want to compete in olympic style competition you do need to be a member of Taekwondo Australia with black belts holding dan rank from the kukkiwon, referees have to be nationally accredited as do the coaches. There does not seem to be anything stopping Joe Bloggs from opening up a club, saying he is a 20th Dan Supreme Whatever in Tiddlywinks and charging $100 per month. Damian. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:36:08 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Low Blocks To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Brent, >Bear, > >Good catch. I was wondering if anyone was paying attention. > >I like working with Mr. Clark. He allowed me to take my art >where it is today, which is a heck of a lot furhter than where >it was before training with him - "You mean you can be hitting >someone with that technique, not just be blocking a low block?" > >But if you ask him about pheasant hunting, all he does is lie! >It's all lie I tell you. > >Brent All I do is LIE? Have you forgotten I'll be up at your place August 6th? Boy oh Boy will I have fun:-) Those pheasant were mighty good right out of the smoker! :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:33:22 -0500 From: "Stuart Rosenberg" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net .........If a person has taken to himself a title--- or even had it bestowed by an organization-- and then conducts themselves in a manner that brings discredit on their art/organization, do they lose the privilege of using that title? As I write this I remember a discussion sometime back about whether or not people could actually have a BB rank "taken away" for bad behavior. Thoughts, anyone? Comments? ....... I think the title Master is exactly like the term "Doctor, Professor, Captain, or any other prefessional Title. It's means a level of accomplishment, not of an all knowing perfect human being beyond any type of reproach. Maybe a time not so long ago the title Master was of a very special thing, but not today everyone and thier mother is a master now! Stuart Rosenberg --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 18:56:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: csemt@yahoogroups.com, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, martialstudies@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video clip: Russian martial art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Knife%20defence.WMV --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:07:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: csemt@yahoogroups.com, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, martialstudies@yahoogroups.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Video Clips: Russian martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hate the way these cats are practicing: http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Stick%20defence.WMV http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Kick%20defence.WMV http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Defence%20against%20grabs.WMV http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Defence%20against%20grabs.WMV http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Pistol%20defence.WMV http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/working%20from%20a%20chair%201.WMV __________________________________________________________________ Jye Nigma ICQ#: 114869914 Current ICQ status: + More ways to contact me __________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Fred Gommels" To: "DOJANG DIGEST" Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:07:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KOREAN MASTERS SEMINAR Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am hosting a martial arts seminar in October 2005 with trainers from SHIHEUNG, S. KOREA here in Rochester, MN. This will be our 6th year hosting this event with GrandMaster Song Pan Gon. His associate Master/trainer this time will be Master Kim Joung Sung, a power-house of Korean masters. This web page www.mafci.com/mastersseminar/testimonials.shtml will give you the impressions of some who have trained in the past with GM Song and Master Kim. The training will include a nice blend of Hoshinsul, Yudo, and TaeKwondo techniques. Log onto this page for seminar content: www.mafci.com/mastersseminar/training.shtml We have a wonderful relationship with our friends from Shiheung and wish to share with you some of our exciting experiences. Please log onto to the web pages listed below for information on the schedule, training description, martial arts show, the trainers backgrounds, and lodging information. KOREAN MASTERS SEMINAR: www.mafci.com/mastersseminar/ Please contact me for any questions you may have. fgommels@rconnect.com Sincerely, Fredrick J. Gommels Martial Art Fitness Centers, Inc. KOREA/USA SIMMUDO ASSOCIATION 2849 S. Broadway Rochester MN 55904 507-281-4335 www.mafci.com www.simmudo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 19:12:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Williams To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Goverment Issued Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All I know is I don't want a U.S. stamp of approval on anything I teach. There is already enough red tape and waiting between the different federations. There would be 5 and 6 year back logs. Who will sign? Does the signer know hapkido? Is he or she from an association that knows what my system stresses most, we all know Hapkido has differences also. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:51:01 -0500 From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chang Hun = Shotokan (was Stuff along the way) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I also wasn't aware that the Chang Han ( > > Cheonji, TanGun, DoSan, etc, ) > > forms were Shotokan. > > This statement brings up a question I have long had to > those who make this claim: IN WHAT WAY are the Chang > Hun tul Shotokan karate? > The original poster actually said that they were "Shotokan blended" forms. As you said, they take sequences of Shotokan forms, and contain very Shotokan-esque movements. That, I believe, is what the original poster meant. As for taking forms wholesale, Won Hyo is nearly identical to Heian Nidan. Nathan --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest