Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:04:24 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #258 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Thoughts on Masters... (john wedow) 2. chang hun (Darren and Elaine) 3. kukki (Darren and Elaine) 4. RE: RE: [The_Dojang] Governemnt Regulations on MA (Robert Mitchell) 5. On gov't reg. by Rich Zaruba (tkdsid@aol.com) 6. Taekwondo Reform Picks Up Momentum (Ray) 7. Shotokan Material (Bruce Sims) 8. Days of the week (Ray) 9. Paul Genge (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 10. Master etc (Bob Banham) 11. Government regulation (Bob Banham) 12. Short Subjects (Bruce Sims) 13. RE: "Master" title (Howard Spivey) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "john wedow" To: jakskru@sbcglobal.net, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Thoughts on Masters... Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:30:02 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: "jakskru" "and since when has physical ability become the measuring stick of being a martial artist? does everyone have to be jean claude van damme in order to qualify as a martial artist?" I have been misunderstood. I apologize, I don't mean that physical ability is THE measuring stick, but martial arts are serious, and instructors must be at least competent, according to their physical ability. My stinging remarks were directed towards people who have hit a mark, and for some reason have stopped training seriously. Though they are truly not seriously practicing, they continue to preach like it doesn't matter that they cannot put up a marginal defense if attacked, or that fighting for more than a minute would completely wind them. These people have exploited the american notion of a "master", and continue to collect money from an unsuspecting public in return for something watered down. "do they have to maintain their physical prowess their entire life? how about when you are 70 yrs. old? do you still have to be able to execute a 540 deg jump spinning double crescent kick??" Martial arts include more than just physical technique, as we all know. The perfectly timed and executed single punch victory is by far more elegant than a 540 deg acrobatics display. I of course understand that age has an effect on the body, but I am not talking about people who stop training physical technique due to age, as they continue training spiritually. "yes, there are arrogant windbags out there, but there are also some masters that have lost a step, yet can still teach and take care of themselves..." Ok, here it is, in a nutshell: A good teacher must be knowledgable; they must know how to help you achieve your goals. They should preferably be systematic and methodical, as opposed to haphazard and unorganized. They must be generous and willing to teach you, and they must teach and practice high moral values. And lastly, if a teacher is clumsy or irritable, it is a sign that they do not practice what they teach, or that what they practise is not of a high standard. I chalk it up to cultural differences that have caused the present situation with charlatan masters, and it probably won't go away for generations. Research, examination, and evaluation of Asian martial arts and their cultural and philosophical background will eventually solve this problem, but by the time that happens we will have all-new stuff to grip about on the internet. Mr. talks-too-much, John _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:45:52 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] chang hun Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is what i have been told by instructors of both styles. Darren --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:49:53 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] kukki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In Kuk Sool Won we have only one GM he alone attends all black belt testing here in the U.K and USA and promotes all black belts when they have reached that level this is after 10 four hour testing spread over a set time span. Darren --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Robert Mitchell" To: Subject: RE: RE: [The_Dojang] Governemnt Regulations on MA Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:15:47 +1000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: tkdsid@aol.com [mailto:tkdsid@aol.com] > >To all the naysayers that say its impossible to regulate martial arts, >I submit this. Korea, China, Japan, Australia, Malaysia etc. > >Anybody else in Australia know how we regulate the MA's as I certainly am >unsure? Not saying that we don't have it, I just want to find out more...... Hi everyone, Only 2 states in Australia regulate Martial Arts. And it is only parts of the martial arts that are regulated. In Victoria they have recently made it illegal under almost any circumstances at all to own or use martial arts weapons, even for those of us who are 'real' martial artists rather than street hoods. In New South Wales they recently passed similar but not quite as draconian legislation. They also regulate martial arts tournaments much more strongly than any other state. South Australia is considering the Vic and NSW regulatory regime. Queensland has recently rejected any notion of specific regulation for martial arts, martial arts weapons or martial arts practice. The other states and territories have not made their position known. As to Korea regulating martial arts, they only regulate Government recognised martial arts. You can teach and practice a non-Government recognised art, which is how TKD, HKD, KSW, and more recently, HDGD, amongst others, started up. Robert --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:23:47 -0400 From: tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] On gov't reg. by Rich Zaruba Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Amen brother! That's exactly what I'm talking about! Sid --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 05:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo Reform Picks Up Momentum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo Reform Picks Up Momentum 6-17-05 by Cho Jin-seo Staff Reporter The Korea Times The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) is speeding up its ongoing reform drive as part of efforts to maintain the Korean martial art as an Olympic sport. The sport's fate will be determined early next month at the International Olympic Committee (IOC)'s 117th Session in Singapore. The federation will hold an ad-hoc committee to review the introduction of electronic protectors on July 20 in Seoul. Several international companies, such as LsJust of Korea, ATM of Austria and Globility-Management of Germany, will participate in demonstrations of their products designed to help ensure objectiveness and fairness in taekwondo competitions. ``We aim to apply the new scoring system using electronic sensors to the taekwondo competition at the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games,'' WTF President Choue Chung-won told The Korea Times yesterday. The IOC will conduct an unprecedented secret vote on July 8 in Singapore to decide the fate of 28 sports. If a sport does not obtain more than 50 percent of the votes from 117 members, it will lose its spot in the Olympics from the 2012 games, and five other sports _ golf, karate, roller sports, seven-man rugby and squash _ will compete to be their replacements. In an evaluation report on all 28 Olympic sports released Monday, the IOC stressed that it is essential for the WTF to ``ensure that the scoring system is well understood by the public and both the selection and impartiality of referees are unquestionable.'' Presently, judges visually determine whether a contestant's kick has stuck the opponent. In a bid to improve the credibility of the judging system, the WTF has decided to increase the number of judges from three to four starting in this year's World Taekwondo Championships. Hoping to make the sport more interesting and action-packed, the WTF introduced three two-minute rounds from the previous three minutes at the 2005 World Taekwondo Championships in Madrid, Spain. An extra ``sudden death round,'' in which the first player to score a point wins the match, is used in the case of a draw in regulation, unlike the old system of using a judge's decision. Taekwondo became an official Olympic sport at the 2000 Sydney Games. It is already confirmed for the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. Currently, eight taekwondo events are included in the Olympic games, four each for men and women. Taekwondo has a worldwide following of about 60 million practitioners and its world governing body, the WTF, has a global membership of 179 national associations. ``Taekwondo's other educational and humanitarian values are recognized and accepted around the world,'' according to Choue. In a recent evaluation report, the IOC said about 99 percent of taekwondo tickets were sold at the 2000 Sydney and 2004 Athens Olympic Games, ranking third in ticket sales among the 28 Olympic sports. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Shotokan Material Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Chris et al: As I shared a couple of times in the past, GM Myungs' five Hapkido hyung borrow heavily from his experience in other arts such as TKD. I think anyone who has studied the Pyong Ahn kata will immediately recognize various sequences watching the Hapkido hyung performed. Certainly these are sound forms that teach a host of principles about body movement and fundamental S-D. For myself, though, I am still concerned that something can be lost when using a Korean rendition, of a Japanese version of the Okinawan structuring of Southern Chinese material. I am intrigued by the TSD people who have a few Chinese forms which I view as being a little closer to the source. What I don't see however, is much in the way of in-depth examination of the content. Rather, there seems to be a pre-occupation with what is "authentic" or "genuine" and what is not. Having shared the above information about our Hapkido hyung I can see how this might happen, but I am not sure how beneficial such debates are for the art. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Days of the week Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fowarding ------------------------------------- Don Baker wrote: "If you want to find a traditional Korean equivalent to Sunday, the closest you could probably come is Jangnal. That was the day peasants went to town to market their goods, buy things they couldn't make for themselves, and, in the case of the men, try a little local alcohol. As late as the 1970s you could still see country folk staggering home after a market day. So Jangnal gave them the break from normal work many of us now get on weekends. However, jangnal wouldn't show up on a calendar, since the day markets opened varied from place to place in accordance with the schedule of traveling merchants." I lived in a small town in Mungkyong Si for almost 4 years and they still have jangnal. That is one of the great things in living in a country that is still 24% agricultural, you can buy fresh farm market produce on regular event days. Jangal wasn't that frequent as I recall, but I wasn't completely aware of the schedule or the rhythm. Farmers in Ontario are just beginning to realize the benefits of small scale organic farming for groups of families on a share basis. Michael J. Wilson, Research Ethics Officer McMaster University, 1280 Main St. W. GH-306 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:28:22 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Paul Genge Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: >I hate the way these cats are practicing: >http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/Stick%20defence.WMV Yah. It was annoying me just to watch them. Thanks Jye! :) Pain shared is pain divided, I hope! I think the most annoying thing was that some of their ideas were quite good, and if they doing it full bore, it might have been cool. But the nose rub after every technique still would have bothered me! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:07:16 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master etc Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just thinking about this whole titles question. When I first visited US in 1992, I was very confused to be called "Sir" by everyone I encountered. In England, that title is limited to schoolmasters and Knights of the Realm. meaning that if you don't teach within the state or private school systems or haven't been given the title by HM Queen Elizabeth, you wouldn't use it or have it used. Now with the ingress of EFC and UP etc. into UK we are hearing it more and more in martial arts classes. Seems the title "Sir" is one that originated in one cultural setting (ours) was taken to another and changed (yours) and has now been re-introduced to us with a new definition. Are we not in danger of falling into the same trap with the "Master" situation? Just a thought. Bob --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Bob Banham" To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:16:08 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Government regulation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In UK we don't have government regulation as such. The way it works is that no insurance company would insure an instructor who wasn't credible. You must have authentfication \from one of the government recognised martial arts governing bodies (eg Kukkiwon) and without insurance of usually £1-2M public liability, professional indemnity and member-to-member, no-one would rent you premises and no local authority would grant permission to operate. Just as it would be impossible to operate as a doctor, dentist, lawyer, lion-tamer or any other profession where members of the public may be put at risk. Seems to work. Bob --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:06:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Short Subjects Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Concerning the idea of government oversight for regulating KMA figures, I get all excited right up to the point that I engage my head. Then, I realize that regulations of teachers has not made for better education, regulation of doctors has not made for better medicine, regulation of CPA and Accountants did not stop ENRON and WORLD COM and training and regulation of Law Enforcement and Security does not get rid of abuses or corruption. If we have government oversee the KMA, the people who are least in need of monitoring will comply and support the project. The people most in need of monitoring will find loopholes. The only solution that I can see working is that practitioners of any worth not turn their backs or hide their heads when a situation occurs and pretend that it will go away or at least does not concern everyone. As far as the discussion on titles goes, I still have not heard anyone explain why the simple use of the terms for "student", "teacher" and "director" are not sufficient across the entire range of Korean MA. They seem to have been sufficent for generations. I wonder why we are in need of fixing something that ain't broke. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:41:25 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "Master" title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a bit off the original topic, I know, but since there seem to be a lot of Southerners on this digest, I thought I'd put this out here out of curiosity... anybody else ever run across this? When I was growing up in Virginia back in the 50s and 60s, I remember that proper Southerners, especially from my grandparents' generation, used the term "master" to address letters to young men 12 and under. After that they became "mister". Also, just to comment on somebody's post about not addressing people senior to you in age or rank by their first name, amen... every single man and woman from my parents' generation was Mr. or Mrs... if we'd ever called any of them by their first name in front of either of my parents, we'd have been picking ourselves up off the ground. To this day I observe that custom... --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest