Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:52:16 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #260 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. value of school (Darren and Elaine) 2. RE: Governement Regulation of Martial Arts (Ronald Tobias) 3. Parents voice concern (Ray) 4. the "Master" title (Adam D. Huntley) 5. student", "teacher" and "director" (Charles Richards) 6. Right Message (Charles Richards) 7. Ba gua fight (Don Kirsch) 8. True purpose of regulation (tkdsid@aol.com) 9. Re: Value of a School (ABurrese@aol.com) 10. why not (Darren and Elaine) 11. From an article: knife fighting (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:39:48 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] value of school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Chris the value of your school is as I belief it to be your schools tuition fees for 3 years plus what ever else is included eg stock,building ect Darren --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Ronald Tobias" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:45:21 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Governement Regulation of Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First let me say, I work for the government and I'm not anti-government regulation. However, I don't think MA is an industry that requires regulation. I think this is once again a matter of consumers wanting the government to protect them from their own laziness and stupidity. The government shouldn't have to protect you from local busisness, you should protect yourself. If you are not smart enough to realize your getting screwed by an unqualified instructor, is that a governmental issue? If you do realize you are getting screwed, take action; move on to another school, sue the bastard, whatever. What about protecting our children? (said with a whine) Again, your job, not the government's. MA schools are not baby sitting services. You know what, if you are at class watching and supporting your child, you will keep any inappropriate behavior from happening. Or, at a minimum see it and be able to take action. If you are not there and the instructor is an unknown pedophile, a piece of paper from the governement saying he's certified to teach and has a clean dojang won't be of much consolation. Speaking of clean dojangs. Someone earlier wrote one of the reason for regulation was to insure a clean dojang. If the dojang is dirty, it should be the responsibility of the students to clean the training hall as tradition dictates. If you feel it's not appropriate for the students to clean and it's the responsibility of the instructor, than address the cleanliness issue with the instructor. If he or she does not clean it up, move on to another school. Background checks: First, what do you expect a background check to reveal? Second, how much information from that background check do you think the "government" would be required/allowed, or willing, to share with the consumer? Who would determine what finding is actionable or not. If you are worried about sex offenders, they already have to register in the community they live. All you need to do is inquire. Many states even have that info available on-line. Then theire's privacy protection issues that may restrict the governement from sharing other information found (if they are even allowed to look for it) during the investigation. You may find this interesting (or disturbing, who knows), many times a "citizen" can obtain information the government cannot. The government is restricted in what kind of information they can obtain, specially in a non-criminal investigation. The other side of the background investigation coin: What about the student? Shouldn't the student have to provide a MA instructor a background clearance so he know he's not letting some criminal, cheat, or lunatic train at his school, subjecting his students and himself to a dangerous situation or financial liability. If these things, that some want the governement to regulate, are acted upon by the students or their parents (if students are children) and people take responsibility, the instructors/schools that are not meeting their standards will soon vanish without government regulation. You see this work all the time, Why do you think the big three automakers are not the same three companies they were 20 year ago? Because they either screwed to many people (price & service), or the competition made a better product (or both). Not because of government regulation. In fact, government regulations (Tarrifs, import quotas, etc) designed to protect the industry have really done little. MA instruction is an industry, use the power of your dollars! Speaking of dollars, what do you think a Kukkiwan cerificate (or any other "approved" certification) would cost if it became required by the government to teach? Can you say monopoly? Government regulation is not always a good idea or effective. Here's a recent example I find illustrates this point very well: The UK greatly restricts gun ownership and has for many years (most of their law enforcement don't even carry guns). The purpose of this is, of course, to reduce deaths/murders. Recently the British government put forth legislation to limit, or eliminate, the sale of knives with pointed tips (even kitchen knives) because these have become the weapon of choice. Has the government regulation of guns been successful? Sure it has, there's fewer deaths from guns! (sarcasm). BTW, this is not an argument for against gun control, it's to illustrate a point! Use power and responsibility you already have, the power of choice (where to train, who to give your money to, etc) and you personal responsibility to take care of yourself and you loved ones. Don't rely, or request, the governement to do it for you! Just some thoughts (ramblings to more accurate) RT   --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Parents voice concern Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Parents voice concerns for safety By Lisa Tetrault-Zhe Portsmouth Herald NEWMARKET - The loss of a trusted mentor and safety for their children were two of the main concerns voiced by parents who attended a forum on childhood sexual assault Wednesday evening at Town Hall. Superintendent of Schools Kathleen Murphy organized the event, with assistance from Police Chief Kevin Cyr and recreation director Jim Hilton, in response to the recent arrest of 55-year-old Keith M. Ingraham, a tae kwon do instructor who allegedly sexually assaulted four girls between the ages of 12 and 15. "(Ingraham) broke his own code," parent Leigh Estelle said. "For the kids, it wasn't just about protecting and defending yourself, if was learning to be a responsible and honorable person, all these values. The tae kwon do grounds them. This has been the hardest part." Diane Lavoie, director of education at the Sexual Assault Support Services in Portsmouth, was on hand to provide advice and support for families attending the forum. "In most cases, about 85 to 95 percent of the children, (the perpetrator is) someone they know and trust. Don't excuse the behavior, but explain that not all adults you know and trust are going to hurt you," Lavoie advised. Ingraham and his wife, Sharon, and their two daughters have operated the Newmarket Tae Kwon Do Academy for the past eight years from a space they lease at the town's community center. Ingraham, who was arraigned in Exeter District Court on June 15, now faces a total of 11 charges. He has not met bail, set at $100,000. "We've had other cases, but not like this. This is an unusual case," Cyr said. "We've had pedophiles and those with multiple victims, but it's not usually a person as well known in the community." Newmarket High School guidance director Tom Pavlidis assured parents that the school is being proactive in this situation, calling in SASS staff to speak with students and having special activities, such as a day at the University of New Hampshire Browne Center. The students in junior high who were in the tae kwon do classes have been moved to a study hall; those in the high school level attend a different activity. "A trauma like this affects the entire community," Pavlidis said. "We expect the students' reactions to ebb and flow. It's not going to end, even when the case is adjudicated. We will continue to deal with it; our staff will help as necessary." --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Adam D. Huntley" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:28:49 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] the "Master" title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes sir. (the US sir not the UK sir, lol) When my son was born, He received a letter (card) from a relative down south. I live in Washington (the state, thank you) and my wife is from Oregon. The letter was for Master T.J. Huntley. Now being that my entire family is involved with TKD, including my best "former" student - my wife, she looks at me and says; "talk about pressure!" -Adam --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] student", "teacher" and "director" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "As far as the discussion on titles goes, I still have not heard anyone explain why the simple use of the terms for "student", "teacher" and "director" are not sufficient across the entire range of Korean MA. They seem to have been sufficent for generations. I wonder why we are in need of fixing something that ain't broke. Thoughts? " MC Reply Bruce, Actually the "American/Modern for profit" crowd has already gravitated toward that. Most use student, coach and owner. FWIW To answer your questions, most without "full enlightenment" are still bound to our fragile ego's, thus the need to be addressed with a tittle or have some heraldry and regalia on our clothing....Just look at how much money Mr. Hilfinger is making on the basic concept of cotton Khakis and cotton polo shirts Be Well, MC MC --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 06:58:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Right Message Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "This was the same program in which he performed 100 push-ups in under a minute. Compare this with the overweight, ill-conditioned or inflexible individual who calls out instructions from behind his desk in the office to kids out on the mat. In other words, maybe I don't need to be able execute a 540-Spin-kick, but I certainly need to demonstrate to my students that I am making the very most of what I have---which is the very message I am giving them, right? Thoughts? " MC Reply Seeing Jhoon Rhee and pushup in the same sentence still makes my arms quiver. At our belt tests at VA TECH GM Rhee would lead the pushups part of warmups. He would generally let the white belts stop after the first 100 pushups. That's when he'd take off his sport coat the un-written tradition was that intermediate ranks should try to finishes the 2nd 100 pushups and could stop when GM Rhee paused to loosen his tie a little for the remaining pushups. Black Belt candidates where told to keep going as long as GM Rhee did :-) I still miss the 80s :-) Anyway GM Rhee knew this before the martial arts management companies said it, but....we as instructors should demonstrate great skill from a position of humility. I agree that is the message we are sending them. One of the great pleasures of a small dojang is I get to train with my students during adult class. Not as intense as my own workout, but still training. The joke/tradition among long term students is if I'm smiley and sweaty as youth class is ending, they are in for a real "treat" during adult class :-) Train with jung do all else is commentary MC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:17:15 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ba gua fight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a comment on the video clip of a "Ba gua" fight. While I'm not a practitioner of Ba Gua I do have an interest in the style of footwork and movement used in Ba Gua. One of the concepts of true Ba Gua is where the name it's self is derived from. Ba Qua means eight directions corresponding to the eight sides of the Ba Gua pattern. The movement in Ba Gua is extremely circular and flowing. IMHO the match on that video clip showed two guys moving in very linear movement. I suspect "real" Ba Gua practitioners are somewhat like "real" HapKiDo practitioners ... what they do does not translate well within the confines of rules and a sport setting. Regards to all, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:04:11 -0400 From: tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] True purpose of regulation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Everytime I or anyone else suggests regulation one thing for certain happens. Someone points to a rule breaker and says that since rules get broken, rules are unnecessary. Regulation of martial arts is necessary so then WHEN not IF a person breaks the rules then there is a recourse. Un Young Kim's actions shown the strength of regulation not the weakness. He was fired, disgraced and replaced by a good man. The kukkiwon will fix its problems until something else gets broken. THEN we will have the means to fix it. Now we have a silly hodge podge of nonsense that allows someone like the chubby wannabee prosper and flourish. When we will get it? Do laws against murder mean there will be no murders?? NOOOOOOOOOO....it means we have the means to stop them. Sid --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:13:05 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Value of a School Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris asked: How do you arrive at the value of a martial arts school? I have a couple of people looking at buying my school and I am unsure as to how I would determine the asking price. Does anyone have any ideas? *************************************** Chris, This is not an easy question that can be answered quickly in this digest. The value of this school, or business, would be valued just like any other business for sale. Some of the things to consider would be: Building being sold, or does the business rent from someone else? Rent price, lease, etc.? What equipment, etc. being sold with business? Cash flow of business? Current student base? Will students stay? Students may be there because of instructor - not school. Liabilities of business? Financial statements? Good will of business? And the list goes on and on. You can probably find entire books on buying a business and things to look at. Then again, maybe you are not selling the "business" but rather just selling all your equipment and right to lease the space, and they will operate their own business with your old equipment and place. That would change things considerably. I help people start more businesses than I do buying existing businesses, so I don't have all the considerations on the tip of my keyboard, but there are a lot of things to consider. Just selling your inventory and right to rent a place or lease a place is less complicated than selling the entire business. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:19:28 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] why not Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Bruce that is it in a nut shell Darren --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:14:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: csemt@yahoogroups.com, martialstudies@yahoogroups.com, itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] From an article: knife fighting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Real World Knife Fighting Training for the Ultimate Game of Tag by Richard Ryan A discussed in previous installments of Cutting Edge Combat the greatest advantages of the edged weapon are that it is a touch weapon meaning all it must do is make sufficient contact with you an it will do damage. It is also considered a multi-directional tool. Unlike the specific body mechanics required to deliver an effective punch or kick, the blade can come at you at any and all angles regardless of the need for such balance or mechanics. These two advantages stand out above all the rest because they allow almost anyone with only a modicum of skill to be potentially deadly with a blade. Add skill and training and you take that average person and make him into a lethal fighting machine in all but the most extreme encounters especially if your adversary is unarmed or in possession of a lesser weapon. The Myth of Knife Fighting But what happens when two people square up for a knife fight? Well, the reality is that this type of thing rarely happens in the real world. Rarely do two hostile combatants face each other toe-to-toe for a battle of the blades. First off, to face a blade at all is stupid. So many things can go wrong that could find yourself talking to God pretty quick. One misjudgment, one mistake and you are meat on a coroners slab. Although statistically more people live than die from gunshots and stab wounds I for one do not want to try my luck unless the only other option is death. The straight up duel to the death with knives are more the creation of the movies and folklore than reality. In truth the edged weapon is more often used to overwhelm victims often with the use of stealth or surprise. In most fights outside of the “psycho attack” people fly into a rage and jump into the kill zone stabbing and slashing away until the victim drops. Or they get close - preferably with deception and shank you before you even know what happened. So why are so many people teaching “knife fighting” now a days? Well for one, it can be profitable. So many people carry folders and yes, there are many people who will pay to learn how to fight with a knife. But unfortunately most of them don’t want to know the truth. What they want to know is things like “where do I carry the blade” and “what type of knife will allow me to do that super fast quick draw when I need to outdraw an attacker” or how can I “sword fight” with my six inch tactical folder? They don’t want to learn the hard truths. They don’t want to learn that if you have to quickdraw the blade in your defense, you’re probably already dead or should have done something else like hit them or run. They don’t want to know the reality that knife on knife combat is the riskiest and most problematic form of combat that there is carrying, with it almost no margin for error. No, these truths are no fun and serve only to shatter the myth of the swashbuckling knife fighter that is so pervasive today. So why practice knife on knife combat? That’s easy, we do so because the practical lessons you learn from such encounters are priceless. By learning how to survive against a blade using a blade you develop a quick appreciation for reality – as long as you play for real. Here is where most knife fighting instructors screw up by interjecting techniques and tactics that will only work if the opponent cooperates or is an idiot. Things like over reliance on traps, passing the blade, and general control maneuvers that seem really cool when you do them but crumble when opponent cooperation ceases. Remember my prime axiom “resistance is what separates reality from fantasy!” Therefore I will reiterate the lessons from the past issue of this column before going on: 1. Don't expect to use conventional blocks and parries against a knife attack. 2. You'll never catch a knife hand in motion, trap it or control it without first severely hurting the attacker first. 3. In defense of a knife you will be cut - the trick is not to die - so be psychologically prepared for it. 4. Try to evade contact entirely or if you must defend cover or shield your vitals and counter viciously. 5. If forced to fight, stay compact and move in with the most lethal attack you can and try to end the fight immediately. 6. Better yet - get a weapons yourself and even the odds! Now with these rules in mind lets move on to some of the realities of blade on blade combat. First and foremost on the self-preservation list is what type of defense to deploy when the opponent has fangs also. Assuming that we are free to operate in an open environment and not confined to a specific situational response our choices are evasion (both in footwork and body), blocks and parries with the free hand and blocks and counter cutting with the weapon / weapon hand. Taken by themselves each one has assets and liabilities. Obviously evasion is the best from a defensive perspective. The best defense is always no to be there but it does not solve my basic problem i.e. the attacker can keep coming until he gets it right. Blocks and parries with the free or guard hand can work but only if the attacker uses predictable lines of attack and telegraphs his intentions at least a little. The less telegraphic, deceptive and unpredictable the attack the less this will work. Moreover, if you miss you could also be dead. Blocking or deflecting an edged weapon close the body offers no margin for error. That leaves blocking or counter cutting with the weapon hand. In an ideal world the attacker forewarns you of his intentions and delivers an easily discernable attack to which you reach out and counter cut achieving both defensive and offensive objectives in one action. Unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world. We live a place where Murphy’s Law reigns supreme. In this world you could just as easily miss and end up a pincushion. Synergistic Defense So what’s the answer? Well the truth is that you may need one or all of these defensive options to survive. In Dynamic Combat and Tactical Weapons Training we believe in stacking the deck in our favor as much as possible to avoid the bite of Murphy’s Law. Here’s how it works. First we are assuming that we have room to operate. Working in a close quarter environment with blades requires a completely different set of sudden death survival tactics. So, for the sake of this article we can move. Evasive footwork and body evasion now become our primary form of defense. We will simply move as much as possible and avoid contact with the blade entirely. But like I said before, that doesn’t solve our problem. Therefore whenever possible we prefer not to just run but to “cut and run”. Ideally we will not only back up but also try to cut anything we can reach with the blade on the way out of the attack zone. Moving the body this way allows for a margin for error. If you miss the counter cut you should still be far enough away to avoid being clipped. And if not, well that is where the guard hand come in. In a last ditch effort to avoid any disabling cuts we will shield or block the incoming attack with the free hand as we move away effectively sacrificing it before we sacrifice our life. Sounds great, huh? Well it ain’t. As a matter of fact nothing about a knife fight is “great.” Bottom line is that if you are ever in one of these for real you had better prey that you make all the right move with no mistakes and have more than a little luck on your side. The good news is that the right knowledge and training can increase how lucky you can be. In Dynamic Combat we train people to fight with any and all weapons and especially those of the edged variety. But the way we do it is different then most. We start out with big knives – no not big as in Bowie big but big as in long blades. The advantage of a long blade is cutting surface. A large cutting surface allows you a large margin for error in the initial stages of training. We use large counter weighted one-handed swords for this but you could use an Escrima stick just the same. You don’t want it too bulky or heavy because that changes the dynamics of the technique also. You want to be able to use it in one hand. Now this larger cutting (and blocking) surface will directly influence how you will utilize the blade. Larger cutting weapons tend to make people more aggressive and less defensive which is good at these initial stages. It allows you to stay in and practice perfecting your blocking and countering skills. But before long we start to use smaller and smaller blades. Often we do this without letting the student know about the changes he needs to make on his defense. As we progress down in size to the length of an actual tactical folder they begin to miss those easy parries more and more until they miss at least half the time. This is a lesson unto itself. They soon begin to realize from actual experience how difficult it is to actually counter cut with a tactical folder. Real World Training Now the real training begins. Armed with this knowledge we can now begin to modify their defense integrating footwork and body evasion and de-emphasizing counter cutting as the primary defensive tool. Now they learn to move away from the blade, cut when they can and even use the guard to survive when they are too close. In the end it is the synergy of evasion, counter cutting and free hand defenses that will increase your chances to survive a blade on blade encounter. The great thing about doing such training is the ability to learn how to effectively control distance and avoid having an opponent be able to even touch you. This type of thing will transcend into all aspects of your combative training making you more elusive than you have ever been. My thanks to Dynamic Combat Expert Instructors John Hutchison and Javier Avalos for help with the pictures. Keep on cutting, 1. Weapon size, weight and shape determine tactics. The characteristics of each weapon determine its use. Size does matter not only in the effects of a cut but in the accuracy and overall control of the tool. Bigger and heavier weapons can cause more damage per stroke but also can leave you open to swift counter attack. 2. Blade length determines blocking and counter cutting potential. Trying to block or counter cut with a three-inch blade is just asking for trouble. Six inches is still a real problem. Nine to twelve or more is better and better. The smaller the blade the greater the skill required. 3. Develop synergistic defenses. To be effective you must combine body evasion, evasive footwork, counter cutting and last ditch guard defenses into a single defensive package. --------------------------------- About Richard Ryan: Richard Ryan is the founder of the martial art of Dynamic Combat™ and the creator of TDT (Tactical Defense Training) and the Tactical Weapons Training Systems. A lifelong martial artist with over three decades of experience, Master Ryan is renowned for his extensive knowledge and scientific understanding of reality-based fighting arts as well as his mastery of hand-to-hand and weapons combat. Richard Ryan currently offers instruction through videos, classes, seminars and training camps. For more information on Mr. Ryan and his organization and training programs, please visit his website at www.DynamicCombat.com or contact Ryan Defense Systems, Inc at (800) 945-Get Real – or dial direct at (602) 482-7252. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest