Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:01:16 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #264 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: video clip:acudo (Jye nigma) 2. Re: titles and other thoughts (Nathan Miller) 3. Knives in fights...... (Bruce Sims) 4. Teaching Kids (Bruce Sims) 5. korean monks (John Merwin) 6. RE: Titles and Manners (BJ Pritchett) 7. Re: teaching kids (LTN) 8. Master (Charles Richards) 9. Sheesh!!!!! (Bruce Sims) 10. Re: Teaching Kids (Ray) 11. Re: Sheesh!!!!! (Ray) 12. calling someone master (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:29:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] video clip:acudo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the sound effects killed me. The system is called acudo. Jye "Edward Peters, III" wrote: Both are curious clips. One, why is it that the Yellow belt is demonstrating the technique. two, at the end of the second clip, why does he look at the camera before he has hit the target. Is it that he has so perfected the technique that he can strike without looking. Also why does the green belts arm stay totally straight thru the whole technique. Looks like training residue to me. What "style is this we are watching. Edward Jye nigma wrote: >http://www.acudo.com/video/6.mpg > >http://www.acudo.com/video/7.mpg > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:00:17 -0500 From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] titles and other thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On 6/20/05, J R Hilland wrote: > This is the way it was done in Texas when I was a child in the 50's and > 60's. Before being a teen, I was often addressed by my Grandparents and > their friends as Master Jere. When I became a teenager that stopped. And > yes, if I ever called my parents friends by their first name I would have > regained consciousness a few hours later if my father was nearby. In the area of South Louisiana where I grew up, and heck, even up in this Yankee part of Louisiana where I am now, it's very common to refer to someone as Mister or Miss Firstname. My next door neighbor was Miss Patty, the neighbor behind us was Miss Vanessa, my friend's dad was Mr. Carl, the bus driver was Mr. Lincoln... the only people I can remember calling by their last name were teachers. Now, visiting my grandparets in Massachusetts was a who other story. we did have a few people who took to our nomenclature pretty well, but for the most part it was quickly Mr and Mrs. Lastname. Dang Yankees. :-) Nathan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:11:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Knives in fights...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "........ 1. Don't expect to use conventional blocks and parries against a knife attack. 2. You'll never catch a knife hand in motion, trap it or control it without first severely hurting the attacker first. 3. In defense of a knife you will be cut - the trick is not to die - so be psychologically prepared for it. 4. Try to evade contact entirely or if you must defend cover or shield your vitals and counter viciously. 5. If forced to fight, stay compact and move in with the most lethal attack you can and try to end the fight immediately. 6. Better yet - get a weapons yourself and even the odds! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,," This is not going to turn into a rant. What I want to do is point out a very telling difference here. In a MARTIAL ART a person uses his primary weapon and falls back on secondary weapons as needed or made available. On a modern battlefield I could not conceive of throwing away my M-16 so I could take on the enemy in a more "honorable" fashion mano-y-mano. Nor do I want to go Three rounds with the guy. In CIVILIAN ARTS a person has a whole slough of other considerations such that what is seen as a confrontation in the military sense is actually a "duel", if you will. Here is where this is going. In the military setting, people expect the possibility of massive trauma, and the use of a bayonet, entrenching tool, tent stake etc etc etc are exceptions rather than the rule. In martial arts "knife-fighting" as a separate art is something a guy might add on by himself. Absent that, most people view this activity as how Hollywood presents in the movies. Its the same with those nifty sword duels which are always so tidy in front of the cameras. Historical reports of duels suggests that the "Errol Flynn" version of rapier work was anything BUT tidy. CONCLUSION?? Most people who profess to train in Martial Arts are not actually prepared for what goes down in an Civilian Art. This includes actual physical damage which MAY escalate into lethal damage, walking a narrow line between acceptable and unacceptable behaior, and discerning between a training envioronment and the fluid circumstances of a non-battlefield public encounter. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:16:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Is Dan #14 under Choi good enough? Gm Ji taught kids in Korea. Not sure how many, but one was the well known KHF Master KIM Nam-jea...." Sounds good. I leaned something. Might I be expected to conclude form the responses that people are a.) Comfortable teaching children. b.) That children can be taught the same material as adults c.) That Hapkido is appropriate for children? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: John Merwin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] korean monks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Jye nigma Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Martial Monks Thanks for the video CIMA ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "BJ Pritchett" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:58:58 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles and Manners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" wrote: <<>> Mr. Hillard - I was raised with the same such traditional beliefs and I pass them down to my children also. I do try and incorporate them into my classes as well because it's simply traditional values, not a bad thing to teach in today's society. All others - I am only a 2nd dan in TKD, and I have just started instructing in my own class. I use to always instruct in my instructor's school. Anyway, I teach at a youth center so all my students are under the age of 18. One of my main goals is to instill a sense of discipline and pride. I try to teach my children to use old fashioned manners. It falls in nicely with the disciplines of TKD. I tell them to respect there parents, Seniors, and Adults with Sir and Ma'am (as I was taught as a child). I require report cards to come in to ensure they are progressing in a full, well rounded way. I talk to there parents to try to meet there goals. I teach them that "master instructor" is an earned title. I teach them everyone is a student, including myself. I teach them as closely as I can the difference between Kyo Sa Nim and Sah Bum Nim. My family has old fashioned traditions. My son receives birthday cards from his grandparents addressed as "Master James XXX". He's taught that's a proper greeting, not necessarily his standings as a martial artist. It's just my two cents, but if a little common sense were applied both worlds "martial arts" and "traditional beliefs" can be taught. Most instructors who have been deemed by there GM's to be "MASTER'S" have earned it. Why is there such a debate over it? If you don't like a school's belief system, train elsewhere. If you don't' think an individual deserves "master" in there title, train where you feel it's justified - if you have to be trained by a master? I've learned from white belts so I don't necessarily believe that "master" makes them better or worse; simply far more educated and probably someone I can learn a lot from, but I am not to proud to think I can't learn from anyone, anywhere. Sometimes the world gets to hung up on the "politically correct" way of doing things. How about training to train, and learning where you can learn and lastly paying respect to each other simply for what we have to offer the world. I respect my white belts every time I bow to them when we train - what's the difference other than belt color? My apologies to those I may have offended with this posting, I just have watched it to long not to add my two cents. Respectfully Yours in the Arts, BJ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "LTN" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:33:59 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: teaching kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: Fact is, Alain, I can't find any information anywhere that says that Choi taught ANY kids. Can't find anything that says any of Chois' immediate students taught kids. Sure, we have people NOWADAYS that state that they teach Hapkido--- but what do they really teach? *************************************8 To me, teaching one Hapkido technique is still teaching Hapkido. We teach addition and subtraction to 1st grader. Is that not math? According to Bruce, we should not call that math because it is not the "Full" math curriculum. I wonder who has learned the "Full" math curriculum. Not me, I have a Ph.D. in Math, and I know that I will never be able to learn all I can in Math. How many people in this forum can say that they have learned the full Hapkido or TKD curriculum, and that they have nothing more to learn? Breaking this down logically. Let's say that, as an instructor, I know N Hapkido/TKD techniques, if I choose to teach a kid (or any of my student) 3 techniques out of those N due to his or her ability and strength at this time, then what do I teach the student? Hapkido/TKD or should I call it something else? How many techniques should I teach before I can call what I am teaching Hapkido/TKD? So to me it is very simple. Hapkido/TKD are large bodies of knowledge and techniques that after 35 years I have barely scratch the surface. I continue to learn about them everyday and I teach what I know to my students based on their abilities to learn. If my instructor told me that the technique I learned was a Hapkido/TKD technique then when I teach it I also call it a Hapkido/TKD technique. When the abilities of my students improve, I will teach them more. And when I teach a Hapkido/TKD technique, I teach Hapkido/TKD. Luc Nguyen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:37:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read ""master" to address letters to young men 12 and under. After that they became "mister"." MC Reply As my Virginia and Tennessee grandmothers addressed me during the 60's and 70's. Here in Georgia, Niko would address you as Mister Jere if you were a close family friend or Master Hilland in any setting with either of our students. If we were in a dojang or dressed in dobohks he would bow to acknowledge you (but not in street clothes). BTW Alain, could you ask your wife if the word "chan" translates from Japanese to Korean. It is the more intimate version of san Be Well, Coach MC --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:41:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Sheesh!!!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Alain: ".......I think we have similar values with a lot of things, but this statement, insinuating that my Hapkido instructors in Korea,....." You know... I really get a short fuse with this. Maybe someone can explain to why it is in my interests to carefully express myself, when folks are just going to spin what I have written however they like. a.) I did NOT insinuate ANYTHING, Alain. I said plain out. b.) And thanks for the overview of your hierarchy but that really does not speak to the question, does it. c.) You do not now, nor have you ever taught Hapkido to kids. You can't and neither can anyone in Korea, Taiwan or anywhere else on the face of the Earth. The minute you say "what I teach to my kids is...." qualifies it as something else. Maybe its Hapkido-like or Hapkido-Lite, or Hap-Kid-Do--- I don't know. But it is NOT Hapkido. Why? Well, here are four good reasons. 1.) A child uses Concrete Thinking, not Reasoning (which kicks in at Adolescence). You are not going to teach a kid the use of lethal force and have them appreciate the implications of what they are learning. 2.) A Child does not have the fine motor skill to discern between impacting the neuro-muscular system and just plain cranking for pain-compliance. ANYBODY can make something HURT. Thats a no-brainer. 3.) You do not teach a child to shove his fingers through another persons' eye, step on a windpipe or blast somebody in the groin. Why? Because the chances are 50-50 that he will actually do it. Thats immaturity for what it is. And, yes, I would tell my kids that they are NOT learning Hapkido but something you have toned-down so little kids can act just like Big Kids without putting you and your school at risk for liabilities. If you want to "kid" yourself that you and other teachers--- Korean or otherwise--- are teaching a lethal art to minors, have at it. Just let me know when your kids start doing paired-work with shin-guem. I want to have the EMT rights to the event. :-P. Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Kids To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 13:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ".....Is Dan #14 under Choi good enough? Gm Ji taught kids in Korea. Not sure how many, but one was the well known KHF Master KIM Nam-jea...." > > Sounds good. I leaned something. > > Might I be expected to conclude form the responses that people are > > a.) Comfortable teaching children. > b.) That children can be taught the same material as adults > c.) That Hapkido is appropriate for children? That would all depend... on the child, his/her age, the parents, and the instructor. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sheesh!!!!! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > c.) You do not now, nor have you ever taught Hapkido to kids. You can't and > neither can anyone in Korea, Taiwan or anywhere else on the face of the Earth. Incorrect. It seems that to you a child is a 4 or a 5 year old. What about a 13 or 14 year old? Are they not still a child? Of course they are. Can you not teach them "real" (whatever that means to you) Hapkido? Of course you can. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:43:30 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] calling someone master Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would only like to respond to the highlighted part of this snip. I AM NOT A WIFE OF A MASTER!!! But I have been dating an 8th degree black belt for over a year, he is not my teacher. When I am in a martial arts setting, be it in class or where any of his students are present I refer to him directly or in conversation as "Master so in so". I do this even though I have been repeated told it is not necessary, my response is always the same, I know it is not necessary. I do this out of respect for him as a martial artist and to set an example that no matter who you are or who you date, respect is something that should never falter. Even though Grand Master West is a good friend, when we are in a martial art setting or in front of any of his students or associates I always refer to him as Master West and will now in the future refer to him as Grand Master West out of respect for Dr. Kimm. My only problem with you comment is that you used the phase "have their wives..." we are in the 21st century and do not believe "obey" is used in the wedding vows. I don't call anyone "master" whom I do not feel is deserving. I again stress I use this term out of respect not due to rank. Just one blondes perspective. Kat Your point is well taken and i repect your opinion i think we met at Grand master west seminar but i met so many people im not sure . I believe we are on the same page but with my limited hill billy computer skills i may be misunderstood, i would like to thank you for responding to my comments directly it happens so very little or not at all on this list so thank you and hope to see you in sept. if gm west introduces us please bring this up so i may put a face to the name im not really a butt head in person its my typing i swear haha. k carter --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest