Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 15:42:43 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #265 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Sheesh (aburrese@aol.com) 2. Re: Sheesh!!!!! (Edward Peters, III) 3. Kids (Brian Beach) 4. Manners (Texatc@aol.com) 5. RE: "master" in Southern speech (Howard Spivey) 6. Fwd: Hope at last (tkdsid@aol.com) 7. butterflyrings clip (Jye nigma) 8. video clips (Jye nigma) 9. Teaching kids - Math (Calvin Berlin) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:08:08 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sheesh Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So Bruce, If what my Hapkido instructor is teaching is not Hapkido, what is it? If what he was learning as a kid was not Hapkido, what was it? If what he was learning as a kid was not Hapkido, but is now Hapkido because he is an adult, when did his body of knowledge change from something other than Hapkido to Hapkido? I have a feeling if I told my instructors, or many others in Korea, that they could not teach Hapkido to kids I would get laughed at. And by the way, the fourth striking technique out of the 30 Hoshinsul taught to white belts is an arc hand to the throat, and yes, it is taught to kids too. My instructor teaches the same curriculum to kids as he does adults. Guess this is one thing we will have to disagree on, Yours in Training, Alain --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:24:46 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sheesh!!!!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, Wow, I usually try and stay out of your crazy talk but man oh man. Your arrogance is astounding to me at times. I don't know much about you other than the things you write here. What has caused you to become so rude? Let me ask this plainly. Why is it YOU have all the answers. You claim that others are not teaching Hapkido. According to whom. I assume you are going by your definition. As I am sure we are all aware Hapkido as a very checkered past and frankly a checkered present. Why is it you are the only holder of "true" hapkido. Do you teach white belts outer arm lock throws, or pressure points. I am guessing not. Because you realize that part of the martial journey is learning things at a rate and time when it is appropriate for the student. FWIW Edward Bruce Sims wrote: > > >You know... I really get a short fuse with this. Maybe someone can explain to why it is in >my interests to carefully express myself, when folks are just going to spin what I have >written however they like. > >a.) I did NOT insinuate ANYTHING, Alain. I said plain out. > > >c.) You do not now, nor have you ever taught Hapkido to kids. You can't and neither >can anyone in Korea, Taiwan or anywhere else on the face of the Earth. The minute you >say "what I teach to my kids is...." qualifies it as something else. Maybe its Hapkido-like or Hapkido-Lite, or Hap-Kid-Do--- I don't know. But it is NOT Hapkido. Why? Well, here are four good reasons. > > >And, yes, I would tell my kids that they are NOT learning Hapkido but something you have toned-down so little kids can act just like Big Kids without putting you and your school at risk for liabilities. If you want to "kid" yourself that you and other teachers--- Korean or otherwise--- are teaching a lethal art to minors, have at it. Just let me know when your kids start doing paired-work with shin-guem. I want to have the EMT rights to the event. :-P. > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Brian Beach Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:53:11 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, First I'd like to invite you to watch a kids class at our DC dojang next time you are in town. The head instructors under GM Jin Pal Kim are his son Master Eric Kim and Lawrence Pham, both who have been studying since childhood. Impressive practitioners. I think the hump that you may have trouble getting over is you are looking at your total knowledge of hapkido and the deadliness of it and say how can you teach that to kids. My reply is you work up to it. You don't teach any white belt how to crush someone's wind pipe the day they walk in the door. There are many other things to learn and absorb before you get to that point. First you learn how to fall then kick and punch, balance, off balancing angles, etc. In our curriculum at least the eye gouges and other deadly techniques come just before black belt. Which in our case they are adolescents, at that point. There are techniques that can cause damage before that like the wist turn out (turning leaf) but it is followed with a pin so it seems that it is a way to make someone fall down not break their wrist. The focus is pain compliance rather than destruction. The children are always instructed "slowly - carefully - this is dangerous" So by the time they are adolescents and move into the adult class they have been doing a dry run of the same techniques now they have a new focus. They have the years of discipline from attending class not to use it. The now, young men I've seen go through this are respectful, great technicians, and very nice well adjusted people. And man! They sure can fall! I wish I had started that young. Probably would have saved me from some of my misadventures and I wouldn't look like a lame duck when doing a split / scissor kick. My 2¢, Brian Beach --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Texatc@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:36:26 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Manners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 6 From: "BJ Pritchett" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 06:58:58 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Titles and Manners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" wrote: <<>> Mr. Hillard - I was raised with the same such traditional beliefs and I pass them down to my children also. I do try and incorporate them into my classes as well because it's simply traditional values, not a bad thing to teach in today's society. All others - I am only a 2nd Dan in TKD, and I have just started instructing in my own class. I use to always instruct in my instructor's school. Anyway, I teach at a youth center so all my students are under the age of 18. One of my main goals is to instill a sense of discipline and pride. I try to teach my children to use old fashioned manners. It falls in nicely with the disciplines of TKD. I tell them to respect there parents, Seniors, and Adults with Sir and Ma'am (as I was taught as a child). I require report cards to come in to ensure they are progressing in a full, well rounded way. I talk to there parents to try to meet there goals. I teach them that "master instructor" is an earned title. I teach them everyone is a student, including myself. I teach them as closely as I can the difference between Kyo Sa Nim and Sah Bum Nim. My family has old fashioned traditions. My son receives birthday cards from his grandparents addressed as "Master James XXX". He's taught that's a proper greeting, not necessarily his standings as a martial artist. It's just my two cents, but if a little common sense were applied both worlds "martial arts" and "traditional beliefs" can be taught. Most instructors who have been deemed by there GM's to be "MASTER'S" have earned it. Why is there such a debate over it? If you don't like a school's belief system, train elsewhere. If you don't' think an individual deserves "master" in there title, train where you feel it's justified - if you have to be trained by a master? I've learned from white belts so I don't necessarily believe that "master" makes them better or worse; simply far more educated and probably someone I can learn a lot from, but I am not to proud to think I can't learn from anyone, anywhere. Sometimes the world gets to hung up on the "politically correct" way of doing things. How about training to train, and learning where you can learn and lastly paying respect to each other simply for what we have to offer the world. I respect my white belts every time I bow to them when we train - what's the difference other than belt color? My apologies to those I may have offended with this posting, I just have watched it to long not to add my two cents. Respectfully Yours in the Arts, BJ G' Day, BJ: I am a "lurker" of fairly long standing but I just HAD to respond to your excellent post and also to that of JR. I am a Black Belt in TKD of just about one month's duration. I am also a "Brit" and in addition I am 72 years old. I grew up in the dark days of WW2 and the almost equally dark days of the postwar period. I went to a Public School in southern England and "proper respect" was beaten into my backside with a cane! Long before that, I was similarly taught at home, especially by my mother, who by the way, will be 100 next month! I can relate to the comment about calling one of my parents' friends by the first name! Unthinkable! As a result, I have NO difficulty in calling my Master (sixth Dan) "Sir", even though he is 35 years my junior. Respecting everyone is emphasised at my Dojang, and during my training over the last few years, I have bowed to an 11 year old Black Belt and, during instructional sessions, addressed him as "Sir". I have begun work on my second Dan and I am also doing some instruction with the lower belts. In these sessions, I insist on respect, obedience, silence and thorough application. This is well received because it is the philosophy of Master Han. Becoming a Black Belt was a special achievement for me but also a profound responsibility. I have learned by this time how little I really know and that I must never cease studying, training and learning. By my behaviour, others will be judged and from my behaviour, others will (I hope) learn. Respect continues to be pivotal to acceptable behaviour and, since our society no longer stresses manners, we in the Martial Arts must gladly take up the challenge. Ash Coopland --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:00 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "master" in Southern speech Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just to respond to Mr. Miller and Mr. Hilland... yes, the things you said rang oh so true to me... I too cannot bring myself to call any of the still-living adults from my parents' generation by their first name, even at the ripe old age of almost 52... "it just doesn't feel right" is a perfect description of why. And as for the "Miss" or "Mrs", followed by the first name, yes indeed, but you would only address them that way once you were an adult. For example, I now call one of my mother's best friends "Miss Anne" (she's a widow), because that's how she prefers to be called. But I could never call her just "Anne", because it just feels totally wrong. I've been living in New Jersey for going on 25 years, and I swear, one of the hardest things for me to get used to was the way people call their parents' friends by their first names. The first few times I heard it, I was damn near shocked. Not criticizing them, mind you, but just very different from the way I was raised. Gentlemen, thanks for the nostalgia - that was very pleasant. And good luck training. Back to Hapkido... --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:52:51 -0400 From: tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fwd: Hope at last Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net -----Original Message----- From: Tkdsid To: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:49:31 -0400 Subject: Hope at last The Attorney General of New York State has written to me indicating that he now is willing to prosecute cases of fraud in martial arts. What needs to be presented are: copies of tuition contracts, cashed checks. stationery indicating membership in an organization in which a dan is promised as well as all correspondence. E-mails are usually not admissable. It was proven in my case, that if you cl;aim membership in the WTF, test someone for a dan and issue a pass letter or school certificate and within 1 year do not deliver the kukkiwon you are then guilty of misrepresentation and must return the fee. At last, a new beginning! Sid --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:00:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] butterflyrings clip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.thebutterflyrings.com/pages/images/applications.wmv --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:02:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] video clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net http://www.thebutterflyrings.com/pages/images/108_moves.wmv http://www.thebutterflyrings.com/pages/images/freestyle.wmv --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 10:38:43 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching kids - Math Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 7 From: "LTN" To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 11:33:59 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: teaching kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir Luc, Great math example. That's how I'm learning what I have been told is TKD, piece by piece. First learned what a front kick is. Then a step-in front kick, then a jumping front kick, then .... When can I call what I'm doing TKD? When I learn a 720 spinning front kick, landing in the split position? When I learn all that TKD has to offer? I started way too late then. We have higher belt classes where we dabble in Hapkido. We learn wrist locks, arm bars, other beginner stuff. Can I call these things Hapkido? Hapkido Techniques? Or just screwing around? I don't know if I'll be around long enough to get to the part of gouging somebody's eyeballs so I can consider it Hapkido instead of screwing around. Which makes me wonder ... if you are practicing gouging somebodies eyeballs out, can you really call it Hapkido until you actually do it live and truly do some damage? Or is it just screwing around? "To me, teaching one Hapkido technique is still teaching Hapkido. We teach addition and subtraction to 1st grader. Is that not math? According to Bruce, we should not call that math because it is not the "Full" math curriculum. I wonder who has learned the "Full" math curriculum. Not me, I have a Ph.D. in Math, and I know that I will never be able to learn all I can in Math. How many people in this forum can say that they have learned the full Hapkido or TKD curriculum, and that they have nothing more to learn?" Pil Seung Cal Berlin ----------------------------------------------------- This electronic mail transmission contains information from P&H Mining Equipment which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper Addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. 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