Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:37:53 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #272 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Bowing and Titles (Jeremy Anderson) 2. Re: Martial Art and Sport (Jeremy Anderson) 3. Cardio kickboxing music (Joan Gittleman) 4. Re: Bowing (tim walker) 5. RE: Master Titles (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 6. Re: bowing and (Hindley) 7. Re: Re: bowing and (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bowing and Titles To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Lois Knorr wrote: > Gladewater SooBahkDo said, > > “...Although we are both equal as humans he is my senior, and my > instructor and I will show him that respect In or out of uniform. In or > out of the Do-Jang...” > > > > My preference is to bow to any martial artist senior to me, regardless > of their clothing or where I encounter them; and to address all seniors > by their martial art title. *However, it is because I respect my seniors > that I comply with their wishes in the matter of bowing (or not bowing) > and how to address them.* *Emphasis added.* Excellent point! If your senior asks you to stop calling them "Master" (or any other title), and you refuse to and continue to call them "Master" despite their wishes, are you really respecting them? It seems to me in such a case that it, again, is no longer about showing respect, but rather being attached to a title. Personally, I find respect in how you act towards someone, not in how you treat them. Bowing/not bowing, handshakes/not handshakes, sir/not sir, master/not master, ma'am/not ma'am, coach/not coach, first/last/middle/nick names, whatever, are all just superficial/external expressions of the respect we should have in our hearts. Heck, I know some places where the "one finger salute" is a sign of respect. Training hard in class, listening to the teachings offered, asking questions when I don't understand, telling them so when I think they are wrong, accepting appropriate criticism and correct, etc., all seem to be more indicative of showing respect than any physical or verbal gesture (or lack thereof). Final thought: Insisting on being called "master" is sometimes ego driven. Sometimes not. Insisting on *not* being called "master" is sometimes ego driven. Sometimes not. Jeremy Anderson. ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:52:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Art and Sport To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From the hip: "Sport" is about training the body, "art" is about training the person. Jeremy Anderson. --- Richard Tomlinson wrote: > Just like to throw this one out to all, as I know as in the past there > will be > excellent responses! My Grand Master at the recent pre - black belt test > asked, "What is the difference between Martial Art and sport?" The > student > gave an excellent response, but I'll hold back to see what ya'll say! > Thanks!! > The Digest is my favorite daily reading and I've learned much! > Bows,sandy. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:52:34 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Joan Gittleman Subject: [The_Dojang] Cardio kickboxing music Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tony, Check out Powermusic.com . They have CD's for all types of classes. look for something that starts out with a beat per minute of 125 for warm up and progresses to at least 155- 160. I have been teaching aerobic kickboxing for 9 years, so if you have any questions feel free to contact me directly. By the way I have a second dan in TKD from GM Hodder. Joan Gittleman --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I bow to everybody now. Grocery store , work, dojang, funeral parlor, everywhere. Feels good. Makes people smile. I call everybody 'Sir' and 'Ma'am' as well. Same reasons. Life's too short. timo "Primum non nocere" --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:41:13 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Master Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been on vacation for the last week so I'm playing catch-up on the DD emails and would like to chime in on this subject. To me, a Master is NOT a title that you give yourself. It should bestowed upon you by your students and your seniors should you seem fit to carry it. There are even a couple of regulars on this forum that sign all of their posts "Master ........so and so" and even begin with "Hello, I am Master ......so and so..". To me, that smells like arrogance on their behalf. How many times have you seen a post or even talked to GM West or Master Hodder and they throw around the GM or Master title as they address themselves???? Never! In March I was promoted to 4th Dan by Masters Hodder and West. Under the USKMAF a 4th Dan is listed as "Master Instructor". Does it matter to me?? Nope. I never have once since March introduced myself as "Master Instructor Morgan" or anything remotely close. When my students recieve their new rank certificates I sign "James Morgan, IV Dan", that's it. And 1/2 the time I don't put the rank at all. Some of my students now call me "Master Morgan". I just let them go on with their conversation and if it comes up, I tell them that "Mr. Morgan" is just fine. Don't get me wrong, getting called "Master" makes you feel great because you MUST work long and hard for such a title. But you should never insist that others call you that. My point in all this is this: If you really ARE a Master, then your STUDENTS will let you know. Or in GM West's case, Dr. Kimm will let you know! Thank you. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hindley" To: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:28:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: bowing and Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jon David Payne student wrote: >"While a sincere gesture, bowing for me, is left to the dojang. It is not >part of my culture and or customs as an American bred southern caucasian >male. If I see someone from the dojang, I address them as Mr., Mrs., Ms. >etc and offer a handshake in public forums. The fact that I train in the >warrior arts is for me and not something I wish to display for publicity. >" I have to agree here with you John. It is my experience that you should avoid bowing in public as others will know you train with who ect. My journey is personal for personal reasons. Displays such as this in public might get people killed in LEO community, Military personnel, Bondsman's, Bail enforcement officers, ect. People get preconceived notions that your evil or violent or think you think your a tough guy. Just my two cents Greg Hindley >>>You always have those like "Gm P" that need/want to buy high Dan rank as >>>it makes them -seem- more legit as head of an organization. I suspect >>>that >>>has always occurred, and no doubt always will. > > Ray Terry>> Ray hits it on the head again. We all know and have experienced it. John Peters, Saying that you are a student of a liar and cheater......not directly....... but through one of his students and align yourself with his organization is questionable in ethics and morals Its something we all try to avoid. If you are looking for MA that will keep you alive in combat....any tactic can be lethal if practiced Not all organizations are created equal Something about: Power corrupts Ultimate power corrupts ultimately John also wrote: What makes a teacher legit? The number of certificates or the > value of good technique? I have never seen "GM P" in person, so I have no > comment on his execution of techniques, but the ones I was taught by my > senior were from his curriculum. There are few people on this list that > have more "combat experience" than I, namely GM West and Master Alain > Burrese. If I left anyone out, my deepest apologies. Any thoughts sir? > > Respectfully, > Jon David Payne What makes a teacher legit? Morals and ethics and proven techniques...there is a list..different for lots of people. Never seen GM P. Not to much I bet...I know a guy who met him in a bathroom during a seminar one time "At band camp" And Mr. P stood up to his name I believe. You made his techniques work for you. He probably stole them from someone else or read it in a book last year and self promoted himself...Don't get me started. Only that you seek a good moral and technical guide and train hard. About having more combat experience than most everyone on the list...There are members from all over the world. That might not be an accurate statement. More of my two cents Seems I'm running out Greg Hindley > From: "Jon Payne" > To: "The_Dojang" > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] McDojang > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:36:20 -0500 > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >>>You always have those like "Gm P" that need/want to buy high Dan rank as >>>it makes them -seem- more legit as head of an organization. I suspect >>>that >>>has always occurred, and no doubt always will. > > Ray Terry>> > > Master Terry, > Have no doubt that I respect you as the list admin and a senior to me in > Korean MA. I make no excuse for whatever tactics "GM P" may have used to > gain his position in that org. I am no longer a member of that org for my > own reasons. I will tell you that techniques I learned in Combat Hapkido > have saved my skin on more than one occasion as a USAF SP and Texas Peace > Officer. What makes a teacher legit? The number of certificates or the > value of good technique? I have never seen "GM P" in person, so I have no > comment on his execution of techniques, but the ones I was taught by my > senior were from his curriculum. There are few people on this list that > have more "combat experience" than I, namely GM West and Master Alain > Burrese. If I left anyone out, my deepest apologies. Any thoughts sir? > > Respectfully, > Jon David Payne > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:16:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: Dwight Wallace > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Art and Sport > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Sport is for competition to improve upon your skills.Martial art is for > your susrvival to satay alive and in operating order. > Dwight > > Richard Tomlinson wrote:Just like to throw this one > out to all, as I know as in the past there will be > excellent responses! My Grand Master at the recent pre - black belt test > asked, "What is the difference between Martial Art and sport?" The student > gave an excellent response, but I'll hold back to see what ya'll say! > Thanks!! > The Digest is my favorite daily reading and I've learned much! Bows,sandy. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Sports > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 7 > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] cardio kick boxing > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:38:02 -0500 > From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" > To: > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Money > > > > Brian Woodard > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Darren and Elaine [mailto:aqzz84@dsl.pipex.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 9:07 AM > To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] cardio kick boxing > > Hi > Just one thing WHY would anybody start cardio kick boxing? > > > Darren > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: Ray > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:40:04 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [The_Dojang] Kim to be paroled > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Former IOC vice-president Kim to be paroled - ministry > Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:00 AM BST > > SEOUL (Reuters) - South Korea will parole former International Olympic > Committee (IOC) vice-president Kim Un-yong this week, a year after he > was found guilty of corruption, a Justice Ministry spokesman said on > Monday. > > Long one of the most powerful figures in the Olympic movement, Kim was > sentenced last June to 2-12 years in prison for embezzling some 3.3 > billion won (1.8 million pounds) and accepting 788 million won in > kickbacks while serving as the head of international sports organisations. > > The sentence was later reduced to two years on appeal. > > "The decision on parole was based on a thorough review of the case, > taking into consideration factors such as age and health," the > spokesman said by telephone. > > He said Kim, 74, would be paroled on June 30 because of health and > other concerns. Kim will have about 10 months of his sentence remaining > at the time of his parole. > > Kim resigned his post at the IOC in May in the face of an expulsion > vote slated for July. > > The IOC's decision-making executive board agreed this year with an > ethics commission report that Kim had "seriously tarnished the > reputation of the Olympic movement". > > Kim has always denied the charges against him. > > At one time considered a candidate to run the IOC, Kim was arrested > while in hospital on charges connected with his leadership of the South > Korean National Olympic Committee and the World Taekwondo Federation. > > When he was sentenced, his lawyer said his actions and business conduct > were rooted in South Korea's dictatorship period of the 1970s and 1980s > and it was unfair to judge him by present-day values. > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: Ray > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] McDojang > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:08:35 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >> ... I have never seen "GM P" in person, so I have no >> comment on his execution of techniques, but the ones I was taught by my >> senior were from his curriculum. There are few people on this list that >> have more "combat experience" than I, namely GM West and Master Alain >> Burrese. If I left anyone out, my deepest apologies. Any thoughts sir? > > I am not surprised. And it is wonderful to hear that what you learned > saved your bacon. Gm P's system teaches techniques that can be very > useful > for self-defense. The same can be said for sport taekwondo, football, > wrestling, etc. All teach things that can come in very handy for when the > feces hits the oscillator. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:21:44 -0700 (PDT) > From: Neil Burton > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Art and Sport > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Sport is competitive whilst the martial arts are a way > of life > > --- Dwight Wallace wrote: > >> Sport is for competition to improve upon your >> skills.Martial art is for your susrvival to satay >> alive and in operating order. >> Dwight >> >> Richard Tomlinson wrote:Just >> like to throw this one out to all, as I know as in >> the past there will be >> excellent responses! My Grand Master at the recent >> pre - black belt test >> asked, "What is the difference between Martial Art >> and sport?" The student >> gave an excellent response, but I'll hold back to >> see what ya'll say! Thanks!! >> The Digest is my favorite daily reading and I've >> learned much! Bows,sandy. >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts >> Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Sports >> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy >> Football >> _______________________________________________ >> The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >> The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts >> Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 06:51:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jye nigma > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo faces Olympic reckoning > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > ok if TKD is no longer in the Olympics, what do you think will happen next > for TKD, olympic style at least? > > > > Jye > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:12:25 -0600 > From: "Jay O'Connor" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo faces Olympic reckoning > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Jye nigma wrote: >> ok if TKD is no longer in the Olympics, what do you think will happen >> next for TKD, olympic style at least? > > Well, it probably won't be called 'olympic style' anymore :) > > Seriously, though, sometimes I think if TKD is not in the Olympics then > maybe it'll help the sport refocus more on being > a fighting martial art and not a sport. > > Take care, > Jay > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 13 > From: "Kevin Janisse" > To: > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:07:24 -0700 > Subject: [The_Dojang] re:bowing > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hello Mike, > > It is unfortunate that you have to be in this situation. > My advice to you is to make the best of it. Too many people put M.A. > teachers > in a position higher than reality. We are all human which means fallen > and > messed up (yes, ALL of us). Learn what you can from him, discard the > rest. I > have seen many people change their lifestyles and turn from rotten to > decent > so there might still be time for him to be a true mentor. > When you bow, you do not have to respect his lifestyle, only the knowledge > you > would like to gain from him. > The best thing you can do is to be an example to others you desire a > teacher > to be. > > Sincerely, > > Kevin Janisse > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:08:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jye nigma > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo faces Olympic reckoning > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > As it stands it is one of the most popular martial arts, I wonder if it > will lose popularity if it's not in the games anymore. Maybe the dynamics > of the art will change into a more full contact deal. > > Jye > > > Jay O'Connor wrote: > Well, it probably won't be called 'olympic style' anymore :) > > Seriously, though, sometimes I think if TKD is not in the Olympics then > maybe it'll help the sport refocus more on being > a fighting martial art and not a sport. > > Take care, > Jay > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Sports > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 15 > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo faces Olympic reckoning > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:25:29 -0500 > From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" > To: > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I second that opinion!! However it certainly is fun to watch!! > > > > Brian Woodard > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay O'Connor [mailto:joconnor@cybermesa.com] > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:12 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo faces Olympic reckoning > > Jye nigma wrote: >> ok if TKD is no longer in the Olympics, what do you think will happen > next for TKD, olympic style at least? > > Well, it probably won't be called 'olympic style' anymore :) > > Seriously, though, sometimes I think if TKD is not in the Olympics then > maybe it'll help the sport refocus more on being > a fighting martial art and not a sport. > > Take care, > Jay > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > http://the-dojang.net > > Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang > > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com > Standard disclaimers apply. > Remember September 11. > > > End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: bowing and To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, my bad I should have caught this one and rejected it. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest