Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:59:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #276 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. TKD Tipped to Survive as Olympic Sport (Ray) 2. TKD---Olympic gold medal (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Bowing (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Bowing (David Weller) 5. re: God has blessed me (Braeswood Martial Arts) 6. Re:South, North Taekwondo Bodies Discuss Techical Issue (. DixiePride) 7. Re: Re:South, North Taekwondo Bodies Discuss Techical Issue (Ray) 8. RE: TKD---Olympic gold medal (Rick Clark) 9. Martial Arts is not a game (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 10. Re: TKD---Olympic gold medal (Ray) 11. Re: Martial Arts is not a game (Patrick Williams) 12. RE: TKD---Olympic gold medal (Rick Clark) 13. Disgraced Kim released from jail (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Tipped to Survive as Olympic Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo Tipped to Survive as Olympic Sport Digital Chosunilbo World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) president Choue Chung-won set off for Singapore on Friday to attend the International Olympic Committee session that starts on July 6. His primary concern is whether Taekwondo will remain on the Olympics' formal list of events, a decision to be taken on July 8 by the IOC in a secret ballot. Optimists outnumber pessimists in the athletics world. They base their opinion on the fact that Taekwondo's 179 member nations make up the 10th largest group within the IOC and the sport already has deep roots internationally. The Korean martial art is also a strategic event for more than 30 nations, including Taiwan, Iran and Greece because it is relatively cheap. The sport needs 58 out of 115 IOC member votes to remain, half of which has already been secured. Promotion of the sport during the last two Olympics has been successful: in Sydney, the events sold out, while in Athens, 97.2 percent of tickets were sold. That is far ahead of other combat sports like judo (82.2 percent and 63 percent), wrestling (68.7 percent and 66.1 percent) and boxing (76.7 percent and 43.5 percent). Taekwondo's weakness is low TV ratings and press coverage. It has also come under fire for an abundance of biased judgments and bad calls. The WTF is promoting a reform blueprint submitted earlier this year that would introduce a sudden-death system to make matches televisually more appealing and an increase in the number of judges. Choue himself said he was neither optimist nor a pessimist in the matter but was doing all he could. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:16:59 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Did you forget--Tae Kwon Do = Olympic Gold Medal" No Rick I did not forget. I just did not want to stir up the TKD practiciners on the digest. However TKD is registered with the Korean Government as the national sport, and the focus has always been on winning the tournament and gaining recognition for the Country of Korea. Some Do-Jangs do practice in a more traditional method but TKD is a sport and not a Martial Art. I no some will argue this but the facts are the facts. Yes it was and is taught in some military groups but it was introduced into the military my Gereral Choi to help it gain recognition and bring popularity to TKD. In Fact General Choi's TKD was made up of former members of the origianl five Kwans over 2/3s of which were former Moo Duk Kwan students of Grandmaster Hwang Kee. The techniques may appear simular but the focus is not the same. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:30:19 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir: Jakskru I am glad I hit a chord with you. Not because I mean any disrespect to you but because I gives me this chance to explain my-self a little better. To not bow does show disrespect. In the Do-Jang How would it feel if at your next class nobody bowed at all. My point is that the act of not bowing at all would seem disrespectfull. You are right that is not a common practice or tradition to bow in the America, because the majority of people walking around your town and the country are not true students of the Martial Arts and Asian Culture. Do you use any of your training outside the school. IF so why should you not use the bow. IF not why train at all. You and others are right that it may look odd to some on lookers but the bow is between me and the person I am bowing to. Like I have said before I only bow to show sincere respect. The bow to my instructor for example is between he and I. So I don't concern my-self with what other thing. Martial Arts training should not be recreational fun, but a life style. Life styles are not turned on and off. Respectfully; JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: David Weller Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:42:35 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bowing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The thread on bowing as a show of respect has been interesting. In the school I attend when we meet a fellow student (or teacher) outside the Dojang the common practice (which I have never heard vocalized or discussed in the school) is to say "hello Mr (Ms. MRs.) So-and-so" and shake hands with the left hand under the right elbow (in the same manner as we receive certificates from our teachers after a promotion) and bow slightly. I've never felt the least bit odd doing it, nor has anyone ever questioned the practice. If someone from our school saw one of our Master Instructors and did not do this, there would be no "penalty". Nor would there be for saying "Hi Joe!" when meeting in the grocery store. Like many of the things in our school this is learned by "osmosis"...... I would not, however, tolerate nor allow a student to refer to their Master Instructor with anything less than "sir" in the Dojang. Outside the school it is their business how they refer to others. Hope everyone in the US has a safe and healthy July 4th, and Happy Canada day today for those "up North" dave weller --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:08:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: God has blessed me Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congratulations Grandpa!!!!! Kat --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ". DixiePride" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 14:40:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:South, North Taekwondo Bodies Discuss Techical Issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wait a minute,am I reading this article correctly? Are the North Koreans trying to set themselves up as spokesmen for the I.T.F.?Who died and left the North Koreans in charge of the I.T.F.? It sure wasn't our beloved General Choi Hong Hi.Since the Generals passing, there are several groups claiming to be the "real" I.T.F. and of those , the group from North Korea has the least claim to the title in my opinion.This is just another example of North Korea trying to bully people into getting what they want. I have always thought of myself as an advocate of merging the two bodies into one centralized authority but I'm not so sure about this deal.I would favor one governing body to issue certificates but two branches under that central authority,the I.T.F branch and the W.T.F. branch, each doing its own set of patterns but reaching some common ground on competetive sparring.I personally dont want the North Koreans speaking for the Chang Hun style and I know in my heart that General Choi would feel the same way.General Choi designed 24 hyungs as the core of the Chang Hun system anything less and you are not studying General Choi's system you are studying mixed martial arts. Just my two cents worth,I would be interested in what others in the Dojang who have studied the Chang Hun style have to say about this. Sincerely, Gregg >South, North Taekwondo Bodies Discuss Techical Issue >The Korea Times >By Cho Jin-seo >Staff Reporter >06-30-2005 >The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) and the International Taekwondo >Federation (ITF) agreed to establish a committee to integrate the >technical aspects of the sport, the WTF said yesterday. >The two global bodies of taekwondo had two-day talks from Monday in >Beijing, and agreed to have one co-chairman and two or three members >from each side for the proposed coordination committee for technical >integration. >The committee will be primarily in charge of issues related to >competition methods and poomsae, which refers to demonstrative patterns >of the Korean traditional martial art. The committee will also try to >find possible ways for the two taekwondo organizations to jointly >participate in the Olympic Games, the WTF said in an announcement. >The WTF has been representing taekwondo at the Olympic Games since it >became an official event in 2000. >It is estimated that there are over 40 million people in about 140 >countries who practice taekwondo according to ITF rules, while 50 >million in more than 170 countries follow the WTF style. Many ITF >taekwondo practitioners also undertake WTF training in order to >participate in the Olympics. >The WTF will discuss the issue at its executive council meeting in >Seoul on July 20. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re:South, North Taekwondo Bodies Discuss Techical Issue To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Wait a minute,am I reading this article correctly? Are the North Koreans > trying to set themselves up as spokesmen for the I.T.F.?Who died and left > the North Koreans in charge of the I.T.F.? Gen. Choi. > It sure wasn't our beloved > General Choi Hong Hi.Since the Generals passing, there are several groups > claiming to be the "real" I.T.F. and of those , the group from North Korea > has the least claim to the title in my opinion. Actually the NK faction of the ITF was the group he put in charge of the ITF just before he passed. Sad, but true. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:45:23 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, >From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] >Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal > > >I read > >"Did you forget--Tae Kwon Do = Olympic Gold Medal" > >No Rick I did not forget. I just did not want to stir up the >TKD practiciners on the digest. I have rank in TKD and started back in the 60's so I have a bit of perspective on how TKD has changed over the past decades. Quite frankly I made addition to GET the TKD folks on the list to think a bit. The older guys to remember and the younger guys to wonder why an old git like myself would bring up this point. > However TKD is registered with the Korean Government as the national sport, and the focus has always been on winning the tournament and gaining > recognition for the Country of Korea. I don't remember TKD as always being focused on winning tournaments, at least the way I was taught. > Some Do-Jangs do practice in a more traditional method but TKD is a sport and not a Martial Art. Perhaps as it's taught today - but not always at least in my opinion. >I no some will argue this but the facts are the facts. Reasonable people can look at the same information and come to different conclusions - and both have valid points of view. >Yes it was and is taught in some military groups but it was introduced into the military my General Choi to help it gain >recognition and bring popularity to TKD. I would tend to believe that Choi might have had other motivation - at least it appears that this is the case by what was the eventual outcome. > In Fact General Choi's TKD was made up of former members of the origianl five Kwans over 2/3s of which were former Moo Duk Kwan students of >Grandmaster Hwang Kee. The techniques may appear simular but the focus is not the same. I have never seen any qualitative data on the number of members of Choi's military members. I have heard how he informed military personnel that they were no longer members of X Y or Z Kwan and they were now O Do Kwan, promoted in rank (both military and TKD), given better quarters, and perks. To have did "no" would have been a mistake to say the least. A Gen. in a military dictatorship would have had a lot of power and influence. Having seen first hand what the ROK military was like back in the late 60's I can only imagine how things worked a decade before. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:01:43 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts is not a game Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net WOW---"Martial Arts is not a game and the results are determined by life and death not a trophy" How many people have you killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many people has your instructor killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many people have your students killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many of your students have been killed in hand to hand combat? Practicing MA is sport and recreation. I agree the skills learned are primarily designed for self defense and some can be deadly in a fight , but the majority of people , who stay involved with it, do so for sport and recreation. It's primary focus is not to kill others. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > However TKD is registered with the Korean Government as the national > sport, and the focus has always been on winning the tournament and > gaining recognition for the Country of Korea. > > I don't remember TKD as always being focused on winning tournaments, at > least the way I was taught. Agreed. The extreme tourny focus is a relatively recent development. Since about 1986 or so??? > I have never seen any qualitative data on the number of members of > Choi's military members. I have heard how he informed military > personnel that they were no longer members of X Y or Z Kwan and they > were now O Do Kwan, promoted in rank (both military and TKD), given > better quarters, and perks. To have did "no" would have been a mistake > to say the least. A Gen. in a military dictatorship would have had a > lot of power and influence. Having seen first hand what the ROK > military was like back in the late 60's I can only imagine how things > worked a decade before. Gm West tells us that during his years in Vietnam ALL Korean military martial arts instructors were Oh Do Kwan, regardless of whether they were TKD, TSD, HKD or ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Williams Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts is not a game To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wrong. All wrong. You may want to study somewhere else or quite teaching. Martial arts is a part of me. It is more then sport. It is more then self defense. It is, for lack of better words, a way. A way to live. A way to see. A way to walk. A way to defend. A way of life. Johnjfitzg@aol.com wrote: WOW---"Martial Arts is not a game and the results are determined by life and death not a trophy" How many people have you killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many people has your instructor killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many people have your students killed using SooBahkDo or any MA? How many of your students have been killed in hand to hand combat? Practicing MA is sport and recreation. I agree the skills learned are primarily designed for self defense and some can be deadly in a fight , but the majority of people , who stay involved with it, do so for sport and recreation. It's primary focus is not to kill others. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 16:50:37 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD---Olympic gold medal > >> > However TKD is registered with the Korean Government as >the national >> sport, and the focus has always been on winning the tournament and >> gaining recognition for the Country of Korea. >> >> I don't remember TKD as always being focused on winning tournaments, at least the way I was taught. > >Agreed. The extreme tourny focus is a relatively recent development. Since about 1986 or so??? It may have been even before that - but I think once Olympic aspirations got into the thoughts of the TKD hierarchy there was a change and at least to my opinion not a positive change. To me the change came about when the Kwan system was subsumed by a Government organization. With my philosophy of government I am of the opinion that once the government steps in and begins to run things its probably the start of the decline. There are a few things that the government can do better than the private sector and some things that must be done by the government. But by and large I think keeping the government out of things seems to be a rather good idea. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to look at Judo and where it has gone since it's introduction into the Olympics in 1964. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Disgraced Kim released from jail Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Funny, it seems they think Un-yong is Kim's last name... South Korea's disgraced sports czar Un-yong released from jail SEOUL: Former International Olympic Committee (IOC) vice president Kim Un-yong was released from prison yesterday after serving only part of his two-year prison term for corruption. Un-yong, 74, whose right eye was bandaged, made no comment to journalists as he left the detention centre in the southern suburbs of the capital. One of the world's most powerful sports officials and one of the key IOC members until his dramatic fall from grace, Un-yong was originally sentenced to two and a half years in prison by a South Korean court in June last year. He was convicted of embezzling 3.3 billion won (US$3.26mil) from sports bodies, including the World Taekwondo Federation which he had founded, and accepting 780 million won in bribes from business contacts. Un-yong, a former South Korean National Assembly member and the highest IOC member to be jailed for corruption, has insisted he was wrongly convicted and jailed. He was released in October to pursue an appeal which ended in defeat at South Korea's Supreme Court, which upheld his conviction in January but approved a lower court decision to reduce his jail term to two years. Un-yong resigned as IOC vice president in May after IOC president Jacques Rogge informed him by letter that the IOC's executive body would recommend his expulsion at the IOC's 117th session in Singapore in July. He is among some 700 prisoners who were released on parole yesterday, the justice ministry said. "The ministry decided to release Un-yong under its regulations in which inmates are eligible for parole after serving one third of their prison sentence," ministry official Chung Yoo-Chul said prior to Un-yong's release. "In releasing him, we took into consideration that he will not be involved in criminal activity again." Un-yong played a key role in winning South Korea the right to host the 1988 Olympics and helped taekwondo become a medal sport in the 2000 Olympics. His career as a sports administrator spans more than three decades after he rose to prominence in 1971 when he was named as head of South Korea's taekwondo association. He was co-opted to the IOC in 1986. Un-yong was severely admonished over the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City bribery scandal that saw 10 IOC members ousted for corruption. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest