Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:45:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #292 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Teach your Children--Well? (Bruce Sims) 2. Teach your children---Well? (Bruce Sims) 3. Forms (Bruce Sims) 4. Re: age appropriate knowledge (Taekwondo America) 5. accidents (tim collatz) 6. Re: Teach your children---Well? (Ray) 7. kids guns (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 8. Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 9. TKD job (Ray) 10. Re: Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA (Patrick Williams) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:01:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teach your Children--Well? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear David: "....2. If you haven't used these techniques to actually maim someone how can you be dead positive they will have the desired effect in "meat space" (as opposed to "cyber space")..." Somewhere here in the US (Florida, maybe) is a mother who buried a little girl who was killed by her playmate, apparently with a "WWF-style" knee-drop. The boy was "just playing". The girl is dead nontheless. I have noted at least three cases in the news where LEO-s have killed a person taken into custody in an attempt to restrain with poorly executed technique. Is there some reason that you are reluctant to weigh these matters into your thinking, or is this part of the "it can't happen here" kind of thinking that crops up in many discussions. To answer your question, I know the techniques work because even marginal or "accidental" applications can have serious results. It does not take a lot of imagination to note that if a marginal application where one is argueably holding back or inaccurate can have serious results, an honest, full-power application would only be worse. I guarentee that teachers are NOT teaching Hapkido to children. They may be teaching some moderated form and deluding themselves that they are teaching the "real deal". Thats fine. Didn't mean to rain on your illusions. You don't have to believe me. Rather, just listen to yourselves the next time you are laying out your syllabus for the up-coming week. Consider that the moment you modify your teaching in deference to the fact that the person learning is a child and not an adults (IE. "can't teach then THAT--- after all they're just kids") you have stopped teaching Hapkido and started teaching "Hapkido Lite". On the other hand, if you care to continue to kid yourself, it makes no difference to me, personally. People are going to believe what they want to believe, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:11:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Teach your children---Well? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Why can any of those -not- be taught to a 10 or 16 year old child? They see them demoed each and every week on TV, so we're really not teaching them anything new. The difference is mainly that we're sandwiching techinque instruction with a discussion of ethical usage. Hopefully we're teaching children of that age, and younger, to properly and safely handle and use a firearm. Or should we also not do that? ....." I honestly cannot believe you had the guts to post this!. How many times have I raised the issue of Ethics and teaching Ethics as it relates to MA training (and been sorely handled for my trouble)!! Now I hear that its OK to teach kids lethal force albeit with a slathering of Ethics to guide them along. Sheesh! Best Wishes, Bruce __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 06:17:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear George: ".....Looks and sounds like you are trying to reinvent the wheel.:) If you can take the time to study what has been taught in the past by the "old mastsers", I'm sure you will find what you seek....." You get a "ditto" from me. Its amazing to me how much people are attempting to invent "new" before understanding "old". Just about every question can be answered by looking back and seeing where we have come from. I think most of what we have is the attitude so common in a modern world that the only thing that counts is "now" and whats coming. Which is probably why those who "ignore the past are cursed to repeat it", yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:18:17 -0500 From: Taekwondo America To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] age appropriate knowledge Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If the kids in my program learn ONE THING, I want it to be that they are worth defending, and if their parents aren't around to help them, they might have to defend themselves. Without this certain knowledge, it doesn't matter what else they know about self-defense. Cheryl Rogers Rick Clark wrote: >Kids should know how to defend themselves with martial arts, guns or >other weapons. They may be the one that could get to a weapon if a >parent were being victimized by a criminal - they may not recognize that >a child will know where a gun or other weapon is located, much less know >how to use it. God forbid it ever becomes necessary for any of us but - >you never know. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "tim collatz" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 08:55:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] accidents Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net   It all comes down to responsibility. We need to monitor our children more "And how many were killed in a car wreck, drowned in a swimming pool, fell on the ground and hit their head, along with all kinds of other accidents." That's my point. Accidents will always happen. But how many can be prevented? How many people were killed in a car wreck because they were speeding, didn't have a seatbelt on, were following too close, on a cell phone, didn't maintain their vehicle properly, etc? How many kids drowned in a swimming pool because they were unsupervised or no fence around the pool, or swimming in the lake and showing off? We had a poster in one of the factories I used to work in. It said "Accidents don't happen, They are caused. " Probably true in 90% of cases. And Rick, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. I live in central Wisconsin where everyone hunts. And owning a gun is everyones right. I guess the point I was trying to make is that I see too many reckless adults teaching their kids how to be just like them. Drinking and driving or snowmobiling. Out on the water speeding past a canoe not caring if they tip it over. Last winter I saw a guy with his child (10 years old?) speeding past me on his snowmobile, must have been going close to 100mph. If he kills himself and his kid , is it really an accident? I work with "at risk youth". Job is kinda easy. I just hang with the kids. Teach them about life values and skills and how to respect the world in which they live. Most are good kids, just a little misdirected. Guess what they are "at risk" from. Ever to often it's from their parents! Well, sorry about this tirade, and I should state that there are many excellent parents out there. And, all you martial arts instructors out there that teach kids-keep up the good work. It really makes a difference in their lives Tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get the NEW version of MSN Messenger with Video Conversation - it's FREE! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teach your children---Well? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "......Why can any of those -not- be taught to a 10 or 16 year old child? They see > them demoed each and every week on TV, so we're really not teaching them > anything new. The difference is mainly that we're sandwiching techinque > instruction with a discussion of ethical usage. > > Hopefully we're teaching children of that age, and younger, to properly > and safely handle and use a firearm. Or should we also not do that? ....." > > I honestly cannot believe you had the guts to post this!. > > [tangent snipped] Bruce, perhaps you could simply address the question posed instead of going off on yet another tangent once you find yourself painted into a corner. ... > Somewhere here in the US (Florida, maybe) is a mother who buried a little > girl who was killed by her playmate, apparently with a "WWF-style" knee-drop. Ah, so it was something from TV then, and not something properly taught in a Hapkido or other martial arts program. You just made my point. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:30:05 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kids guns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net tim wrote I believe that there is an appropriate age for teaching kids certain things, that's why learning to drive a car is 16. Being able to drink is 21. Sex education starts at an early age, but at 10 years old they don't need to know the mechanics involved. I have 4 kids that are very responsible, oldest just graduated from college, others are straight A students. All but one practice tkd. Even though they are very responsible, it sends chills up and down my spine to think of any one of them handling a gun when they were 10-12 years of age unsupervised. Notice I said unsupervised. Yes, children can learn how to handle guns, but when there isn't a responsible adult around, the guns need to be locked up. It's very naive to think that children can act with the same mental capacity as an adult and make responsible decisions all the time. Last year 9 children under age 19 were killed by guns- per day! For every child killed 4 were wounded. Over 1200 committed suicide/ unlike other methods of suicide, suicide by guns are almost always fatal. It's a sorry day for our society when we need to teach our kids to fight for their lives. Unfortunatly, that day is here. So, what do we do? We as adults in this society need to start taking care of the sickos and the perverts and stop being so lenient. Sorry about the paraphrasing but didn't want to spend all night typing. I'm not that good at it. Where did you get your statistics tim some liberal site or some other form of misinformation when you take these ''KIDS'' 19 years old they include gang members and street thugs neither of wich sound like responsible citizens. How about kids in car wrecks where there is usually an adult driver? My god i must be dead and not even know it i was hunting by myself at 11 years of age and with friends at the ripe old age of 13. I grew up in a house where there was abuse towards my mother and my brother and me from dear old dad i didnt shoot him or anyone else as a matter of fact im 36 now have a license to carry concealed and do all the time, never have drawn my side arm in anger or fear. I also start teaching my nieces and nephews at very early ages about the danger of guns and have bought the NRA's eddie eagle tapes for the kids to watch will they be unsupervised with a gun as early as i was i hope not because as long as im there uncle and they want to target shoot or hunt or just satisfy there curiosity i will be there for them and i know that what i teach them whether it be fear of guns or respect for guns its my responsablity I cant trust anyone who doesnt trust proper education and knowledge over there own fears. kurtis carter --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:12:56 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read - “I have not killed anyone, nor has my students or my instructor, but martial arts training should teach the skills you need to defend your self. Realistic self-defense training (Martial Arts) and sport training is different (Tournaments). In a tournament there is a judge and or referee, sometimes even legitament respect for the person you are fighting. Self-Defense training is not a set of techniques you memorize for a belt. The person that attacks you with a knife, or attacks your wife with intentions of rape and murder do not respect you, there is not judge with a flag, and your ability to defend yourself is rewarded with life or your loss could mean death. You missed the point, If you want to train in a recreational school I wish you the best, but if you are attacked by a real world attacker I hope your recreational ability will be enough.” My comments: I appreciate your hope that my recreational ability will be enough. It has been in the past. Just because one does something for sport or recreation does not mean they do not train hard and frequently. It does not mean their skills are not effective in defending oneself. I have been practicing MA for 35 years and was a paid instructor when I was in college back in the mid 1970’s. I have not been in a street fight since the 1970’s and now, I live in a very nice area of town so the crime rate is very low. I am not in law enforcement , not a criminal and not a war fighter so practicing self-defense is not critical. My MA skills are primarily designed for self-defense and some can be deadly in a fight , but I have continued to practice MA because I enjoy it and the benefits that it provides me. My wife and children are also black belts and they have done it for many years. Webster’s Dictionary defines recreation as “refreshment of the body or mind , esp. after work; diversion....2) any pleasurable exercise..” At this point in my life and for many others that practice MA, I believe it fits within this definition. I believe most of us are not training to kill others or preparing for fights. If I was worried about my life, I would also train with guns and would carry one. In any case, enjoy your workouts and I hope you never have to fight for your life. Thanks --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD job Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net USA Taekwondo Job Opening: Championship Events Manager July 13, 2005 USA Taekwondo is accepting applications for the position of Championship Events Manager until August 1, 2005. http://ustu.org/CHAMPIONSHIPEVENTSMANAGER.pdf --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 17:22:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Williams Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's to all who believe in striking without mercy. Martial arts training should be geared toward totally taking out an opponent. I try to train my students and teach each of them that it is not about point sparring. A bear hug can get your attacker a bite across the face, ear or whatever is within reach. Yes I am a Hapkidoist, and have been for many years, but basic self defense is what works best, followed by joint locking or throws. Head butting, eye strikes are practiced with padded helmets at half power. And again, followed by joint locks. Forearm strikes across the throat, chin, nose, eye's followed by throws. You hit it on the head baby. There is an old saying, Kill or be killed. At lease be prepared to. Johnjfitzg@aol.com wrote: I read - “I have not killed anyone, nor has my students or my instructor, but martial arts training should teach the skills you need to defend your self. Realistic self-defense training (Martial Arts) and sport training is different (Tournaments). In a tournament there is a judge and or referee, sometimes even legitament respect for the person you are fighting. Self-Defense training is not a set of techniques you memorize for a belt. The person that attacks you with a knife, or attacks your wife with intentions of rape and murder do not respect you, there is not judge with a flag, and your ability to defend yourself is rewarded with life or your loss could mean death. You missed the point, If you want to train in a recreational school I wish you the best, but if you are attacked by a real world attacker I hope your recreational ability will be enough.” My comments: I appreciate your hope that my recreational ability will be enough. It has been in the past. Just because one does something for sport or recreation does not mean they do not train hard and frequently. It does not mean their skills are not effective in defending oneself. I have been practicing MA for 35 years and was a paid instructor when I was in college back in the mid 1970’s. I have not been in a street fight since the 1970’s and now, I live in a very nice area of town so the crime rate is very low. I am not in law enforcement , not a criminal and not a war fighter so practicing self-defense is not critical. My MA skills are primarily designed for self-defense and some can be deadly in a fight , but I have continued to practice MA because I enjoy it and the benefits that it provides me. My wife and children are also black belts and they have done it for many years. Webster’s Dictionary defines recreation as “refreshment of the body or mind , esp. after work; diversion....2) any pleasurable exercise..” At this point in my life and for many others that practice MA, I believe it fits within this definition. I believe most of us are not training to kill others or preparing for fights. If I was worried about my life, I would also train with guns and would carry one. In any case, enjoy your workouts and I hope you never have to fight for your life. Thanks _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest