Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 03:02:48 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #293 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Kids and Deadly Force (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. Re: Teach your Children--Well? (Edward Peters, III) 3. Re: Kids and Deadly Force (Ray) 4. Firearms, martial arts, and kids. (Chris Holmes) 5. Re: Kids and hapkido (Klaas Barends) 6. Teaching Hapkido to Kids and other beginners (J. R. West) 7. RE: Kids and Deadly Force (Rick Clark) 8. RE: Bruce ...reinventing the wheel (George Peters) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:23:02 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Kids and Deadly Force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Simms wrote: > Tell me about the Chokes... > And the falling-knee strike---- > And the strike to the ears where you rupture the eardrum? > I was also wondering about the strike to the back of the knee ... Ray Terry wrote: Why can any of those -not- be taught to a 10 or 16 year old child? They see them demoed each and every week on TV, so we're really not teaching them anything new. The difference is mainly that we're sandwiching techinque instruction with a discussion of ethical usage. Rick Clark wrote: Is there child in any school that does not know how to smack eardrums and rattle the head of their classmates? My reply: You guys hang out in some rough neighborhoods or what? I never remember anyone smacking eardrums when I was a kid, although there were bunches of older kids who would kick the crap out of you with cowboy boots. If your kids are seeing this crud on tv, turn off the tv. There's plenty of literature out there on how viewing violence can make your kids become inured to it. I know there's a ton of violent games out there that do the same, SO I DON'T LET MY KIDS PLAY THEM! What kids need in self-defense is four things: 1. A basic knowledge of wrestling or movement, so they can get away. 2. A knowledge that it is ok to run, and the ability to do so. 3. A knowledge of how to punch or control the person, depending on what you want them to do. I've had students punch and kick their way through up to 3 attackers, so it works ok. They didn't have to break eardrums or snap backs to do it. 4. A knowledge that it is ok to protect themselves if they are attacked and to report the attack after it happens to the proper authorities." Rick Clark wrote: >From my perspective I think you are doing kids potential harm if you do not teach them dangerous and potentially deadly techniques. What comes to mind for me are these poor kids who have been abducted by the child molesters, tortured, raped, and sometimes killed. My reply: I disagree with this reason strongly. I know that we use this excuse to teach a lot of self-defense classes that make us a lot of money, but most minors are abducted, molested, tortured, raped and sometimes killed by their relatives and the friends of their relatives, not by strangers. Which of them is going to attack their relative, their priest, or their martial arts instructor? Those are the people who have contact with them. That is why #3 ("it is ok to fight back or tell people") is so important. Don't expect a kid to poke his uncle in the eye while he's being molested, it probably isn't going to happen. I did have a friend hit his dad upside the head with a brick when he was a kid, but he didn't go back to the house for a few days after that, because he figured he would be killed, not just beaten. Rick Clark wrote: For information on deaths from choke holds used by the LAPD please see http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm My reply: One of my favorite articles! Great article, by a guy who knows what he's talking about. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Koiwai a while back. Did you know he was one of the first volunteers to test this new miracle drug, "penicillin" back in the Second World War? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 19:33:22 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teach your Children--Well? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, >/Somewhere here in the US (Florida, maybe) is a mother who buried a little girl who was killed by her playmate, apparently with a "WWF-style" knee-drop. The boy was "just playing". The girl is dead nontheless. I have noted at least three cases in the news where LEO-s have killed a person taken into custody in an attempt to restrain with poorly executed technique. Is there some reason that you are reluctant to weigh these matters into your thinking, or is this part of the "it can't happen here" kind of thinking that crops up in many discussions./ > > So two things here. First, because someone uses a technique, means it;s a martial technique? I don't understand. I understand if you are trying to say that kids need more care in learning to be responsible with what they are taught. But just because some kid uses so stupid flying knee drop does mean that kids can't be taught these things responsibly. Second, I am sure that there are accidents with executing a technique in a LEO situation resulting in death. Does that mean that LEO's shouldn't be taught these things, or that they, in fact, need more/better training. Now a related question. Yes LEO's sometimes use techniques and it ends poorly. What percentage is this of the overall use of techniques performed by LEO's everyday accross the world. Do we have these stats, no. > >/I guarentee that teachers are NOT teaching Hapkido to children. They may be teaching some moderated form and deluding themselves that they are teaching the "real deal". Thats fine. Didn't mean to rain on your illusions. You don't have to believe me. Rather, just listen to yourselves the next time you are laying out your syllabus for the up-coming week. Consider that the moment you modify your teaching in deference to the fact that the person learning is a child and not an adults (IE. "can't teach then THAT--- after all they're just kids") you have stopped teaching Hapkido and started teaching "Hapkido Lite.../ > > So if teaching a HKD technique to a child not another HKD technique, makes it NOT HKD, right? How do you teach white belts, or yellow belts HKD? If you are not teaching them all the techniques then you are not teaching them HKD. This simply does not make sense. You teach the art to the learning capabilities of the student. FWIW Edward --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kids and Deadly Force To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You guys hang out in some rough neighborhoods or what? I never remember > anyone smacking eardrums when I was a kid... Not really a rough neighborhood. Just very typical kid stuff, things they'll figure out all on their own. > If your kids are seeing this crud on tv, turn off the tv. Agreed. The best advice is to just turn off the damn TV. But that is in your own home. What about in the houses of their friends? Are their friends watching WWE? Or playing GTA? Very likely. Just like the person that says, we don't have any guns in our home so we don't have to teach our children about guns and gun safety. imho, WRONG! I have no problem with those that make the personal decision to not have a gun in the house. But what about the homes of their friends, or their friend's friends. With a gun in ~50% of the homes in the US (thank God) they will likely encounter one and they should know what to do when that happens. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 20:52:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Firearms, martial arts, and kids. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been watching this unfold and so I thought I would weigh in. People have taught children how to defend themselves from the dawn of time. It has only been in the recent p.c. dominated culture that people have taken exception to kids being able to defend themselves. As far as suicides an accidents are concerned, that goes back to our morally deprived culture. With boys being punished and told not to roughhouse and act like boys.....boys that think they are girls and are praised for doing so..... girls that want to be boys......my two daddys.....my two mommies......men who now have female parts and women with the same.....metrosexuals.....the pedefiles who want sex with children legalized..... the sexual predators and killers that get off on technicalities......I'm sure some of these kids would have loved to know how to use firearms and have access to them.....or some lethal ma techniques. God knows I could continue but I know I've said enough.....I don't teach everything to children because I don't know what they go home to...... but I wish every kid had to go through a lengthy gun safety program. This wasn't a politically correct post but what do you expect.... I'm a southern MAN. Chris Holmes --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Klaas Barends Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:59:32 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kids and hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Kids should know how to defend themselves with martial arts, guns or >> other weapons. Kids should grow up in a caring and loving environment without violence. Teaching kids how to kill (be it another human being or even an animal) is not something I would find appropriate. Children can't clearly distinguish between reality and fiction. They can NOT judge when is the appropriate time to use skills. (even a lot of adults don't seem to be able to do that) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ Dutch HKD Federation http://www.sangmookwan.com/ SangMooKwan International Training Center Korea --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J. R. West" To: Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:07:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching Hapkido to Kids and other beginners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been teaching Hapkido for over 38 years, and due to the initial training I received back in the 1960s, I have a pretty good idea of what works, and what works and precludes your opponent from walking away. I really don't teach kids myself, but I have a small kid's class at my school, and I don't see them learning all the small nuances of lethal techniques, and I'm pretty comfortable with that. I mainly teach adults, military and law enforcement, and I don't teach those folks the more lethal or permanent aspects of Hapkido either....that is, until they have enough understanding and execution of basic motion to be able to control these techniques, AND I'm confident enough with their mentality. The one thing with kids is, they grow up, and at some point they are ready to learn "big-guy" stuff, but that doesn't mean that they have been learning something other than Hapkido up to that point....they have been taught in accordance with their ability to learn and understand....The same as an adult beginner.....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 21:22:21 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids and Deadly Force To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin >From: Burdick, Dakin Robert [mailto:burdickd@indiana.edu] >Rick Clark wrote: > >From my perspective I think you are doing kids potential harm if you do not teach them dangerous and potentially deadly >techniques. What comes to mind for me are these poor kids who have been abducted by the child molesters, tortured, raped, >and sometimes killed. > >My reply: > >I disagree with this reason strongly. I know that we use this excuse to teach a lot of self-defense classes that make us a >lot of money, #1 I don't have a commercial school and I don't make a lot of money teaching kids. What kind of excuse will you make if a student or the parent if that student is molested or worse killed? > but most minors are abducted, molested, tortured, raped and sometimes killed by their relatives and >the friends of their relatives, not by strangers. Which of them is going to attack their relative, their priest, or their >martial arts instructor? Those are the people who have contact with them. That is why #3 ("it is ok to fight back or >tell people") is so important. Don't expect a kid to poke his uncle in the eye while he's being molested, it probably isn't >going to happen. I did have a friend hit his dad upside the head with a brick when he was a kid, but he didn't go back to >the house for a few days after that, because he figured he would be killed, not just beaten. YES I DO EXPECT A KID TO POKE AN UNCLE IN THE EYE WHEN THAT KID IS BEING MOLESTED! I HOPE THEY BLIND THE BASTARD AND RIP OUT THEIR THROAT! If they can cut, rip, shoot, bite or other wise remove the offending part of the bastard I hope they do! Not only should a kid NEVER have their childhood robbed in such a manner a relative or trusted member of the family or community should never NEVER be allowed to do such a think to a kid. At the very lest the low life might be HIV positive, or other STD's and give them to the kid, and there are so many other things that could happen to them and does happen. I had a relative who keep trying to molest me as a kid and I would have no part of it. It turns out he became a scout leader and molested boys in his troop, lots of them. If I would have reported the bastard back then he would never have had the opportunity to hurt these kids. As is it is he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail and I don't have a bit of sympathy for him. I was ashamed to tell my parents or his parents about what he tried to do on multiple occasions, but they would not have believed me (or at least that's what I thought). Now its too late for those kids that have been molested by him and THAT weighs on my conscious. If this is not enough I had a friend from kindergarten, grade school and then high school killed in her home with her husband and three children. They came home and found scumbags in their home. They tied up the family and then proceeded to kill all of the family, first by beating the kids to death with an iron in front of the parents, then the wife and finally the husband. Thankfully they were caught, tried and convicted, sentenced to death. I wish to god this family INCLUDING the kids would have known some "deadly" techniques. Perhaps they would be alive today. You and anyone else can teach how they please, but for me I'll never water down techniques I know because someone is too young. I'll teach rank appropriate techniques, and I'll teach the best I know. I don't want to wake up one day and find out a student of mine, or a child of a student of mine is dead and I know that I had taught less than the best I know how to teach. How could you or anyone else look themselves in a mirror in the mornining if they found out that the cute 12 yr. old in your class was raped and dead AND you knew that you had avoided teaching them dangerous techniques that MIGHT have saved them just because statistics say it's a family member or someone they know that rapes and kills kids. It does not matter WHO the child molester is or what their relationship is to the kid. The result is the same a child is molested. People come to us as instructors to teach them - we have a responsibility to teach and to teach the best self-defense we can that is our obligation. You and others do as you please - me I know what I'll teach. Rick Clark "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone" Al Capone www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bruce ...reinventing the wheel Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, I absolutely agree with you on this. So many waste their precious time repeating the journeys that others have taken for us. Respectfully, George --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest