Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:14:14 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #294 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Teaching Hapkido to Kids and other beginners (Edward Peters, III) 2. Kids and deadly force (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. RE: Kids and deadly force (Rick Clark) 4. One man's mercy is another man's crime (tim walker) 5. Children Defending Themselves (BJ Pritchett) 6. Teaching kids (Todd Miller) 7. half day hapkido seminar (Don Kirsch) 8. hunting at 11! (tim collatz) 9. teaching Hap Ki Do (Rudy Timmerman) 10. Re: hunting at 11! (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 01:16:58 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Teaching Hapkido to Kids and other beginners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you Grand Master West, (still getting use to that) I have been thinking a lot about this concept that you can or cannot teach something based on an age level. Yes the driving age is 16, my wife grew up on a farm and she learned to drive around age 10. Sure there are some good guidelines for these things. But when it comes to MA training it really is between the instructor and the student to figure out what can/will/should be taught and what can/will/shouldbe learned. Thanks Edward J. R. West wrote: >I have been teaching Hapkido for over 38 years, and due to the initial >training I received back in the 1960s, I have a pretty good idea of what >works, and what works and precludes your opponent from walking away. I >really don't teach kids myself, but I have a small kid's class at my school, >and I don't see them learning all the small nuances of lethal techniques, >and I'm pretty comfortable with that. I mainly teach adults, military and >law enforcement, and I don't teach those folks the more lethal or permanent >aspects of Hapkido either....that is, until they have enough understanding >and execution of basic motion to be able to control these techniques, AND >I'm confident enough with their mentality. The one thing with kids is, they >grow up, and at some point they are ready to learn "big-guy" stuff, but that >doesn't mean that they have been learning something other than Hapkido up to >that point....they have been taught in accordance with their ability to >learn and understand....The same as an adult beginner.....J. R. West >www.hapkido.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:42:06 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Kids and deadly force Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry wrote: But what about the homes of their friends, or their friend's friends. With a gun in ~50% of the homes in the US (thank God) they will likely encounter one and they should know what to do when that happens. My reply: Good point. I personally am terrified of guns -- they are way too deadly for me! But gun safety is very important. Rick Clark wrote: #1 I don't have a commercial school and I don't make a lot of money teaching kids. What kind of excuse will you make if a student or the parent if that student is molested or worse killed? My reply: When I said "we make a lot of money" on self-defense seminars, I meant the industry as a whole. I don't think I've charged money for them yet, and the amount of technique I could cover is such a class is of course very limited. A few vital points, a few strikes, a few escapes, and some information on avoiding attacks. That was about it. As for kids, I don't teach them any more. In good conscience, I just can't teach the stuff I used to (t'aekwondo). I just don't think it is effective. And the hapkido I do is something that would tear up kids, so I don't teach it to them (or to some adults, as JR West mentioned). The only kids I teach now are my own, and the fighting techniques I teach them are sticky hands, some wrestling, and attitude. Rick wrote: YES I DO EXPECT A KID TO POKE AN UNCLE IN THE EYE WHEN THAT KID IS BEING MOLESTED! I HOPE THEY BLIND THE BASTARD AND RIP OUT THEIR THROAT! My reply: I'm with you on the "hope" part, but not the expectation. It is very hard for someone who is so overpowered to fight back, especially against a recognized authority figure, and one that they might actually love, trust, or fear already. You fought back and that was admirable, but you still didn't feel you could report it. Giving people the confidence to report such things is more important, I think, than trying to turn them into killers. I do try to give students attitude (ie. "anything that goes into my mouth gets bitten off") but you know as well as I do how hard that is. Everytime I taught the self-defense class at Indiana University, getting them to fight back was one of the hardest parts of the class. And that was a group of women who had self-selected that class and decided they wanted to learn how to fight! About a third of them were usually unwilling to fight back, a third were more aggressive, and a third had been assaulted in the past and had to work through flashbacks, crying jags, and uncontrolled anger. By the end of the class, most of them had gotten a little better at technique, and I know about 2/3 of them were more ready to fight back, and to serve as resources for the people who didn't sign up for the class. But I'm still not sure I reached that third who initially thought it was unfeminine to fight back. I hope some of the techniques stuck though. Rick wrote: How could you or anyone else look themselves in a mirror in the mornining if they found out that the cute 12 yr. old in your class was raped and dead AND you knew that you had avoided teaching them dangerous techniques that MIGHT have saved them just because statistics say it's a family member or someone they know that rapes and kills kids. My reply: Hard question. And maybe not a fair one? If my students trust me, and they are willing to report the crime, then maybe they will come talk to me. At any rate, most of the kids I saw when I was teaching were there because their parents supported them, and they weren't in a lot of risk from that quarter. As for risk from other sectors, that is largely up to the parents, and not under the martial arts instructor's control, don't you think? I know that young kids change rapidly, and that someone who was a good student one year might be a street punk three years later. I didn't want to be responsible for teaching something that would make our neighborhood worse in the long run. For example, a pair of instructors from Sacharnoski's group came to Bloomington at one point and were advertising weapon skills to the kids. Our neighborhood (right next to a federal project) didn't need kids running around with sais and tonfas! But like my students fought back if they had to. They knew that I would kick them out if they used the arts wrong, and that I would actually go LOOKING for that kind of data. I don't teach t'aekwondo any more because I don't think it works, and I think it does too much damage to the knees and spine and hips. But I don't teach kids any more both because of that and because I'm so busy trying to make a living that I don't teach adults any more either -- except for a couple training partners who help me stay trained. The kids class was the last one I gave up, after teaching it for 18 years. Chris Hunt, who trained as a kid under me, teaches it now. I still think t'aekwondo is a good thing to teach kids, as long as it is done as physical education and not as sport, but I can't do it any more. If I actually had time again, and maybe I will in the future, my stuff would look like what I teach my own kids now. Marketing the product would be difficult I imagine, because it would be so different from everything else I see. I do have the luxury right now of doing what I like, and changing it on a daily basis, because I don't have a curriculum to uphold. And I know a lot of other people don't have that luxury. Maybe talking about different ways of marketing self-defense would be useful. How does one make one's lessons stand out? But Rick, I don't think quoting Al Capone is the way to go! Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef which had a name of winmail.dat] --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:05:33 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Kids and deadly force To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dakin, >From: Burdick, Dakin Robert [mailto:burdickd@indiana.edu] > But Rick, I don't think quoting Al Capone is the way to go! > >Yours in the arts, > >Dakin It makes a point - and a good one at that - at least from my perspective. I am a member of a Law Enforcement training association and the quote was used by an author making a point in their journal. At some point in time I'll want to make another point and will change the quote, but for now it fits my view of this thread. Rick Clark "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone" Al Capone www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:12:42 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] One man's mercy is another man's crime Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaas wrote: <> Where I come from, "He needed killin'" is a valid defense argument. You argue that it's all violence, when what we teach is just business as usual. You don't have to enjoy it (killing,maiming,defending), but sometimes it's got to be done. That whole business in Iraq...are our soldiers killers or just doing their job? Don't they practice euthanasia in your neck of the woods? Killers, or angels of mercy? timo "Primum non nocere" --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "BJ Pritchett" To: Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:42:42 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Children Defending Themselves Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, I've seen a lot of postings for or against teaching self defense, knife/gun techniques, etc. I'm curious for those who talk about responsibility and such - what do you teach the child to do after the attack or with the weapon they may have taken. Many schools I've visited teach the "defense against a weapon" but I've heard few talk about excessive force, where to draw the line, and what to do with the weapon afterwards, etc. A lot of youth will play with the weapon rather than turn it over to an adult because they simply don't know better. For teenagers, do you cover date situations, meaning you don't want to kill the person but you want them to leave you alone... When we work with self defense, we try to teach to a child appropriate level, with younger ones, for example, what to do if at a friends and the friend gets a gun. We teach don't fight for it, leave and get an adult, if you can't leave, and you are threatened, try for the gun - get it and give it to an adult!!! We do scenario or role playing to make the children think about applying the technique and such. With older kids we try for the peer pressure route. If your buddy does, or at school your friends... Can anyone tell me how they do it at there school. We are always open to new ideas. I do realize every situation can't be covered, I'm just looking for input on where you draw the lines. Yours in the Arts BJ Pritchett --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Todd Miller" To: Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:46:28 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Teaching kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been teaching Hapkido for over 38 years, and due to the initial training I received back in the 1960s, I have a pretty good idea of what works, and what works and precludes your opponent from walking away. I really don't teach kids myself, but I have a small kid's class at my school, and I don't see them learning all the small nuances of lethal techniques, and I'm pretty comfortable with that. I mainly teach adults, military and law enforcement, and I don't teach those folks the more lethal or permanent aspects of Hapkido either....that is, until they have enough understanding and execution of basic motion to be able to control these techniques, AND I'm confident enough with their mentality. The one thing with kids is, they grow up, and at some point they are ready to learn "big-guy" stuff, but that doesn't mean that they have been learning something other than Hapkido up to that point....they have been taught in accordance with their ability to learn and understand....The same as an adult beginner.....J. R. West Very well put! I think you have hit the nail right on the head Master West. Thank you for making things a little more clear for Bruce. Take care Todd --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 08:08:45 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] half day hapkido seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A half day HapKiDo seminar is being held this upcoming Saturday, 7/23/05 in Georgetown, Texas. Topics to be covered are Basic Belt Techniques and Defense Against Kicks. The cost to attend is an open mind and a willing body. Contact Master Don Kirsch at donkirsch@msn.com or Mr. Tom Stanfield at tstanfield@verizon.net for more information. Regards, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "tim collatz" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 10:14:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hunting at 11! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm sure you were hunting at 11 by yourself. Sounds like your parents wern't all that responsible. As far as my stats I usually get them off sites such as the CDC. Lot's of info out there. And, I'm not afraid of guns, unless they are in someone elses hands. And kudos to you that your responsible enough to carry. A lot of people aren't. I've had a person attack me just because I walked up to him to say hi. He was pissed offf at something and took it out on me. (he backed up his boat trailer into the dock and broke his light). He was so mad that I think he probably would have shot someone if he had a gun! Well, I suppose we should end this conversation because it's really not about the martial arts. Interesting discussion though. Tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download today's top songs at MSN Music from artists like U2, Eminem, & Kelly Clarkson --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Rudy Timmerman Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:29:50 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching Hap Ki Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Edward writes: > So if teaching a HKD technique to a child not another HKD technique, > makes it NOT HKD, right? How do you teach white belts, or yellow > belts HKD? > If you are not teaching them all the techniques then you are not > teaching them HKD. > This simply does not make sense. You teach the art to the learning > capabilities of the student. I agree with Edward here. I teach Hap Ki do. I have taught it for more years than many of you have lived, and I teach it to children as well as adults; however, I also teach it while keeping a good eye on the people to whom I teach it. I ALWAYS show a technique in a limited way, because it makes it easier to learn the gross movements first whithout adding the details. In addition to that, it gives me an opportunity to evaluate the student BEFORE I add the nuances that make the technique more effective. Sometimes I NEVER teach these nuances to an individual, and that has included people of all ages. There are several reasons why I do this, and not all of them are due to the potential instability of a student's mind. I might also do this because a student does not have the physical capabilities of performing a technique safely. After all, I have a responsibility to the people my students practice with as well. If this makes me a teacher of something other than Hap Ki Do, so be it. My teaching methods have worked well for me for more than fifty some years, so I think I'll just keep doing it. BTW, I have taught some kids with more on the ball than some adults, so why would I limit their training due to age??? I am sure that Bruce also teaches his White Belts different than he does his Black Belts, and so he should. A White Belt learning Hap Ki Do light, as he calls it, can learn more effectively. We do not teach Calculus to students who still have to grasp the essentials of basic math... yet, they ARE learning math. You may call this math light, but it IS math. It is somewhere down the road when we figure out if the math (or martial art) student is ready for more, and sometimes we make mistakes. I know I have, and I have learned to live with it without giving up (or changing the the art I teach). Rudy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hunting at 11! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 09:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I'm sure you were hunting at 11 by yourself. Sounds like your parents > wern't all that responsible. Not in the least. I'd say they taught their children well. But it will greatly depend on the child, the parents -and- their surroundings. I suspect most of this gun paranoia comes down to where you were rasied. While I was raised in a town, a small town, the town was surrounded by state and national forest. It was a fairly common sight to see someone walking down the street with a rifle or shotgun over their shoulder as they could just walk a mile or two and hunt or shoot, safely, all they wanted. While I wasn't hunting alone at the age of eleven, my friends that were raised on farms were doing just that. Probably at even a younger age. Me? I had to wait until I was 14, but then I wasn't permitted to have my own rifle until I was 12. A single shot Remington .22, and I still have it. I've always wondered... Is it the kids that have changed or the parenting? Back to KMA??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest