Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:51:34 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #296 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Hapkido - kids (Klaas Barends) 2. Re: Can you identify any of thesefolks from 1965? and interesting link. (Christopher Spiller) 3. Re: Re: Hapkido - kids (Ray) 4. Questions about BB (Clint Cayson) 5. Re: Hapkido-Kids (foxxee) 6. TV & Playing Outside (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 7. Re: Teach your Children -- Well? (aburrese@aol.com) 8. Re: Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA (JENNIFER KIRAL) 9. Re: Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA (Patrick Williams) 10. RE: Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA (Rick Clark) 11. Killing, gun safety and Hapkido (Hindley) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Klaas Barends Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:07:46 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido - kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Brother Klaas. I understand you are in Korea training Hankido. Are > children present? Do they do the same techniques you do? Are they > knowledgeable, as far as what they are doing and why? I don't teach > children but after viewing the many posts I'm considering trying a > class to see have it Pan's out. > The old system of hapkido under IHF which I learned, for some > reason was quite a challenge for kids. Many would quite after a > month or two of training, although that was years ago. Your > comments are welcome as you are there and have first hand knowledge. The way it goes in our gym. Both children and adults learn the same basics. Which means basic-techniques, kicks, falling, strikes, basic self- defense and the 12 basic hankido-techniques incl. the breathing exercises, 3 forms (non-hapkido) as well as hankumdo-techniques (a lot of basics here as well) up until 1st dan. Teaching the low-belts is usually done by the instructors. Our master, Ko Baek Yong, doesn't teach the low-belts that often. He once said that he considers people of his gym to be his students after they past their 1st dan test. 1st dan takes about year and a half sometimes 2 years. No lethal techniques are being taught. ie. Poking in the eye, choking. And only a limited set of pressure points. People work on perfecting these techniques and adding extra techniques to their skills up to 3rd dan. It is not till after 4th dan, and if you are still training on a regular basis that our master starts to teach more intensively. The emphasis is on the three principles however, and how to use and apply them. Depending on the interest of the student, he can choose what to practice. This all is in big contrast to what they used to practice. My master told me how they practiced glass-spitting for example. (now which traditional hkd-practioner still practices or teaches this at their school???) I have to agree with Ray that the way you look at guns, is for a great deal dependent from where you are from. Where I was born, and also here in Korea, you don't see people walking through town with a gun on their shoulder. If people who own guns in the Netherlands go hunting, they have to carry their guns in a case to the forest. (talking about safety) (when Ray was 12 year old, there didn't even exist something called tv, showing how people kill each other 24/7) To all the people who do teach lethal techniques to kids: What do you do when the parent of some other kids walks into your gym and starts complaining about how your students poked his fingers into the eyes of their son/daughter ???? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ Dutch HKD Federation http://www.sangmookwan.com/ SangMooKwan International Training Center Korea --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:03:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Can you identify any of thesefolks from 1965? and interesting link. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 12:30:10 -0500 > From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" > To: > Subject: [The_Dojang] Can you identify any of these > folks from 1965? > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > On to a new thread! I was looking at Kim Soo's > photo of the students at his Seoul academy in 1965. > There's both Koreans and Americans there. Can > anyone identify any of them? The URL is: > > > http://www.lacancha.com/koreaacademy.html > > > > Yours in the arts, > > > > Dakin Well, according to a link off of the page you provided the front row consists of: "PARK Dong Keun, Kim Myong Soo, Kim Soo, Chong Hwa, and Han at Kim Soo's School. Korean Taekwon-Karate Academy in Seoul. Korea 1965." I think the "Han" mentioned is actually Ahn, Dae Sup. I noticed that GM Kim Soo has a link on his site where you can see pictures oif his recent trip to DPRK. It looks like he went on the 50th Anniversary Trip that was sponsored by NK and Taekwon-Do Times. The photos are available here if anyone is interested: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/05/4countries/4countries.htm Taekwon, Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido - kids To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 05:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > (when Ray was 12 year old, there didn't even exist something called > tv, showing how people kill each other 24/7) That would have been more like when Ray was -12. :) When I was 12 most kids in the US were raised on solid diet of Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, William Boyd and Clayton Moore... in TV shows and in the old movie reruns on TV. All were good guys with guns that shot up the bad guys. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:13:06 -0400 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions about BB Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All! Is/are there phase(s) for young kids to get a 3rd degree or 4th degree black belt? I mean, the age range from 8 to 12. Also, anyone heard of a teenage senior instructor? Sincerely, Clint [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of image001.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 08:29:56 -0500 From: foxxee To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hapkido-Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dana: Chances are that this kid watched WWF on t.v. and wanted to imitate the wrestlers. I heard about a simular incident several years ago when a boy body slammed his baby brother on the floor and killed him. Since then, I forbid my kids to watch the show unless they showed some kind of responsibility. If caught imitating the moves, I wouldn't let them watch the show or they got a severe lecture on the subject. The best way, if they insist on watching that kind of show, is to watch it with them. Of course, when it involves my husband, that would last only five minutes. He cannot get through the BS before the fight commences and me, I cannot stand watching that show knowing it's a script. If you want real wrestling, put the kids in sports in schools. Keep them from watching that crap on t.v. From the way they dress and the way they talk, that's not a suitable show for children. Then again, I don't think Sponge Bob Square Pants is a suitable show either....Better yet...send the kids outside to play and see reality. Donna > >Message: 4 >From: "Dana Yeagley" >To: >Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 16:29:05 -0500 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido - Kids >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >It was said - Somewhere here in the US (Florida, maybe) is a mother who >buried a little girl who was killed by her playmate, apparently with a >"WWF-style" knee-drop. The boy was "just playing". The girl is dead >nontheless. > >Refresh my memory - was this girl's playmate training or had he trained in >wrestling?? Was he told to NEVER use his techniques outside the classroom >or ONLY in a self-defense situation. Training kids in Hapkido, can be done >if you have the right instructor. No, you probably won't be able to teach >20 kids at a time or maybe not even 10, and yes, it will be harder than >teaching adults but the fact is it can be done. It has been done, whether >some want to believe it or not. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:43:52 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] TV & Playing Outside Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> AMEN!!!! Now that's what I'm talking about. I make my kids go outside and play. The TV is strictly limited. Brian D. Woodard --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:48:43 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Teach your Children -- Well? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce posted: I guarentee that teachers are NOT teaching Hapkido to children. ******************* I wasn't going to post on this again but.... That has to be one of the most ignorant statements ever posted on the DD. You have lost all credibility with me. You try to be such an academic, etc. regarding KMA, and then you can sit there, an American, and say the Koreans do not know what they are doing or teaching. Are you next going to tell me you know Korean language better than Koreans too? If that is not conceited, arrogant, and plain ignorant, I do not know what is. You have never once answered any of the questions I posted to you regarding Korea, you just keep insisting what the Korean Hapkido instructors are doing is not Hapkido. What the hell is it then? I guess I need you to tell me, because I must be lying to my students and everyone who buys my videos because I?m calling what I do Hapkido. I call it Hapkido because I learned in a school that only did Hapkido in Korea. It was under the largest Hapkido organization, and the instructors had high rank in Hapkido, one of which knew Choi Young Sul. But now I?m learning that it was not real Hapkido because Bruce says so. You won't listen to me, or others on the list such as GM West who has many more years experience, also in Korea with Koreans, and continue to insist you are right. I guess if it makes you feel better thinking you academically study an art that is so dangerous it cannot be taught to anyone under a certain age, and that feeds your ego, so be it. But the fact is, there are many Hapkido schools teaching Hapkido to kids, both in Korea and around the world. Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 10:09:44 -0700 (PDT) From: JENNIFER KIRAL Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net just one point here...do you even consider the legal ramifications of doing this "taking out an opponent"? i thought self defense was about awareness, escape and survival? Patrick Williams wrote:Here's to all who believe in striking without mercy. Martial arts training should be geared toward totally taking out an opponent. I try to train my students and teach each of them that it is not about point sparring. A bear hug can get your attacker a bite across the face, ear or whatever is within reach. Yes I am a Hapkidoist, and have been for many years, but basic self defense is what works best, followed by joint locking or throws. Head butting, eye strikes are practiced with padded helmets at half power. And again, followed by joint locks. Forearm strikes across the throat, chin, nose, eye's followed by throws. You hit it on the head baby. There is an old saying, Kill or be killed. At lease be prepared to. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Patrick Williams Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What you are mentioning is only one part of self defense. You will not always be able to escape or run away. It would be great for rational people react to rationally. It would be nice if we lived in that kind of world. Though we teach this, escape etc. we know that this is not always the case. We must all be aware of the laws in each state. Notice the last statement, "being prepared to." If someone shovels a knife to your throat are you going to ask about awareness or freeze? Though self defense encompasses awareness and survival, it would also be considered survival to apply a throw followed by a well placed stomp to the skull. Most of all, it is all up to the person being attacked. Train for both, be prepared for anything, and react. JENNIFER KIRAL wrote: just one point here...do you even consider the legal ramifications of doing this "taking out an opponent"? i thought self defense was about awareness, escape and survival? Patrick Williams wrote:Here's to all who believe in striking without mercy. Martial arts training should be geared toward totally taking out an opponent. I try to train my students and teach each of them that it is not about point sparring. A bear hug can get your attacker a bite across the face, ear or whatever is within reach. Yes I am a Hapkidoist, and have been for many years, but basic self defense is what works best, followed by joint locking or throws. Head butting, eye strikes are practiced with padded helmets at half power. And again, followed by joint locks. Forearm strikes across the throat, chin, nose, eye's followed by throws. You hit it on the head baby. There is an old saying, Kill or be killed. At lease be prepared to. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:46:52 -0500 From: "Rick Clark" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Killing in Soo Bahk Do or other MA To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: JENNIFER KIRAL [mailto:jakskru@sbcglobal.net] > >just one point here...do you even consider the legal ramifications of doing this "taking out an opponent"? i thought self defense was about awareness, >escape and survival? I hope you never get in a situation where you have to stop and think what would happen to you in a court of law if you have to defend yourself. Because if you take the time to "think" and rationally work out all of the ins and outs of the court system you will probably be room temperature. For me awareness is something I think of PRIOR to events popping off. Escape? Well if that's possible, but I am not comfortable in turning my back on an aggressor who is still mobile and has the potential to injure me. Survival? Well - I would rather have their family cry than mine. (do a web search on OODA and Boyd) You need to sit down now and consider how much force you are willing to use, under what circumstances you would be willing to use force, and if you are willing to use deadly force. I am 56 years old, I have an implanted defibrillator, and I know that if I ever get into a fight with my health and age it will be only in a situation in which I feel my life is in danger or the life of another is in danger. At that point deadly force is justified, at least in my mind. (do a web search on 'use of force continuum' and look for the concept of 'one plus') Rick Clark "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone" Al Capone www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Hindley" To: Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:27:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Killing, gun safety and Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Patrick Williams wrote: >Here's to all who believe in striking without mercy. >Martial arts training should be geared toward totally taking out an >opponent. I try to train my students and teach each of them that it >is not >about point sparring. A bear hug can get your attacker a bite across the >face, ear or whatever is within reach. Yes I am a >Hapkidoist, and have >been for many years, but basic self defense is what works best, followed by >joint locking or throws. Head >butting, eye strikes are practiced with >padded helmets at half power. And again, followed by joint locks. Forearm >strikes across the >throat, chin, nose, eye's followed by >throws. You hit it on the head baby. There is an old saying, Kill or be >killed. At lease be prepared to. Mr. Williams.....respect to you. "Kill or be killed" one of the first Karate guys in the movies. B- flick but James Ryan was cool. eeeeeeyaaaaa I believe Mr. Williams has a good point. To the critics.... There are so many good opinions about our beloved MA and that it is a great thing that people are constantly pushing the limit. It is after all an instinct in us all. Its what propells us to the stars and to cure disease. It is our instinct to debate as well. To sum up a few thought of late I have read: I teach my 11 and 15 year old kids how to kill and after years of talks and interactions and training they know what is appropriate to defend themselves I think. Do what is necessary to stop the attack and make yourself safe is what I teach them. They become more intelligent every day and face situations that us older people couldnt even conceive of when we were kids. They are so more advanced than us now adays that it is ignorant to believe that their skill level is not way beyond ours in their length of training compared to ours 20 to 30 years ago. They certainly can be taught Hapkido and advanced footwork ect. Its done every day across the world. Not all are the same though.. I hunt. Both my boys hunt and have taken 19 hours of gun safety classes with me. They dont hunt alone but living here in the sticks I know lots of kids 11 and up who hunt with an adult and kids 14 and over who hunt by themselves. Most accidents happen to adults. If someone make a mistake while hunting with us they are shown what and why and take it quite seriously. In fact my 14 year old pointed out what his 35 year old uncle who has been hunting for years commited a gun handeling offenses hunting with us and was the first to point it out. I think they are very mature and most of the kids whos parents care also exhibit these charictoristics. I fought all kinds of tournaments, now I dont compete anymore. I train for reality. I teach the kids to choke out, bite, poke eyes, grab the groin if there is an attempt to abduct them. Fighting in shool is different. They dont do it, but know how to kick and punch and again know to match the level of intensity against them and also factor in intent of the attacker. I think if you treat your kids like adults that they will in fact act as such and havent had any reason to question my kids in 20 years of raising them. Just my two cents... Greg Hindley --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest