Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:32:00 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #308 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Testing Fees (Thomas Gordon) 2. Re: ATA "MASTERS" SPARRING (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Children's Rank (Jye nigma) 4. Re: not impressed (Jye nigma) 5. Re: Children's Rank (Edward Peters, III) 6. Re: Well rehearsed! (Jye nigma) 7. found this article (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Testing Fees Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, making money is absolutely evil. (That's facetious) Curiously, what is the wholesale cost of a uniform? I mean, the REAL cost. How much Century charges me? Perhaps we'll add the cost of me taking the time to get the order together, calling Century, receiving the order, and stocking the order? Perchance we'll add the share of overhead such as being licensed to be in business, cost of continual training/improving, utilities, advertising, insurance, and maybe, just maybe a little bit so I can take my kids out for a burger. I just don't understand why making an honest living is such a disgrace to some martial artists. I don't mean ripping someone off with $10K programs or ridiculous inescapable contracts. I mean making a living. These are typically the same people who can't afford to attend seminars, get their lights fixed, or replace their desperately worn out uniform. Yes, making money is so evil. As for me, my family deserves a fair lifestyle. And again, we haven't made a dime on our martial art school other than to pay for our training. Everything is being put back into the school (and I repeat myself, it's paid for our training....and our students benefit). But when we get ready to pay ourselves, we'll have the means to do so. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ATA "MASTERS" SPARRING To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's exactly what it reads...."Masters" sparring. The clip is of ATA Masters sparring before their advancement in rank (if I'm not mistaken).... Jye Myron Murff wrote: Lets be clear Mr. Jye nigma; what do you mean to imply by putting the word MASTERS in double quotes? Myron Murff ATA _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:38:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Children's Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net my thoughts below: Bruce Sims wrote: 1.) A child CANNOT defend themselves adequately against an adult. It is a cheap sales trick to represent that with MA training a child somehow becomes abduction proof or assault proof or bully proof. I agree to a certain degreee, I don't think a child can defend themselves against SKILLED adult. There was a case in Ga where a 7 year old girl escaped her would be rapist by kicking him in the leg and running away... Now had this been a skilled adult, then she probably been a victim. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:40:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] not impressed To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just not impressed with his skills on that tape. To be fair I'll say I wasn't impressed with his skills on that tape. Jye Darren and Elaine wrote: Hello I dont post much just woundered why Jye is not impressed with GM Soon Ho Lee? Darren __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:32:02 -0500 From: "Edward Peters, III" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Children's Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Bruce have you ever had a student or seena student blow out a knee, or age. At what age are YOU willing to remove rank from someone because they are no longer able to DO what they learned. Calm down man. There are more side to the coin than YOURS. FWIW Edward Bruce Sims wrote: >".......I have seen a lot of kids with 2nd Dans, 3rd Dans, and even a few 4th Dans. >It seems to be that some styles/schools will pass kids and promote kids >solely on the premis that it is good for their self confidence, which, I >don't have a problem with......" > >Sorry, I DO have a problem with this. In MA we are talking about being able to actually > DO what a person is represented as being able to DO. > >1.) A child CANNOT defend themselves adequately against an adult. It is a cheap sales >trick to represent that with MA training a child somehow becomes abduction proof or >assault proof or bully proof. > >2.) A child is NOT well-served by a FALSE self-confidence. Bestowing a Black Belt on >a child reinforces the idea that there is some sort of magic in the much desired cotton >strip around the child's waist. > >If what is being said is true then I throwdown the following challenge. > >a.) As part of the test for they child dress an adult in Full-contact gear and award >points as a function of how long it takes the child to fight themselves free of the >adults' grasp. > >b.) Institute a policy of TOTAL reimbursement of ALL tuition and belt tests paid > on the occasion of the child being assaulted and unable to protect themselves >following the bestowing of a Black Belt. > >If KMA and teaching children is so damn important to you folks and your position >is that you are teaching children GENUINE MA then I submitt that you put the >money that you are earning when your words are. Any Takers? > >Best Wishes, > >Bruce > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:47:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Well rehearsed! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The clip of the masters sparring was horrible. I felt I had to let everyone know that those were masters sparring so they wouldn't think that those were regular guys. The so called grandmaster's techniques in the video clip were awful. It just looked like his movements lacked power and his limbs were lifeless. But in all fairness that was one clip. I just remember my teachers one who is a grandmaster and one who was 5th dan and their techniques had power! I'll tell you one thing, I stepped into an ATA school here in GA, and I looked around and was like wow, nice size place...so I watched a couple of classes but was turned of when I saw the black belts (who were teens) break dancing on the mats. Shoot I remember in my school we weren't aloud to whistle I wouldn't have even dared to break dance...lol Now I realize that this does not or should not speak for all ATA schools, but I WONT be going to that one. I was pleased with a Parviz Nikhoo who taught ITF but he has since disappeared. Jye Dave wrote: I recently competed in the Nebraska State Games, which was directed by one of these well rehearsed ATA guys. It was the worst tournament I have ever competed in. I witnessed a black belt, who forgot his black belt, instead opting for a black fanny pack he had ATA on the back of his dobok (that's the TKD uniform for all you ATA guys). I saw another fine ATA competitor, a teenager, competing with his athletic supporter on the outside of his dobok. The director of this "tournament" 7th degree black belt Dan Langoria of Lincoln, Nebraska stood on the stage all day wearing a cut off tshirt and sweatpants, so as far as I read in the State games brochure he has a black belt. This was the worst example of a Taekwondo tournament I have ever seen, if this event had taken place in Korea it would have been a total disgrace, and the director would certainly resign in humiliation, hopefully a certain director will do the same. My point is, if this and the clips you sent are any indication of the quality of training that ATA gives my son and I will definitely go elsewhere. A concerned Nebraska Taekwondo student ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:54:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] found this article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From Choi Kwang Do to Koo Self Defense What you are about to read on this page may have begun in 1991 when I was a vice-president of Choi Kwang Do Martial Art International BUT on reading the entire page thoroughly, you will discover that CKD has not changed much over the years and continue to scam their Chief Instructors even to this day! For Master Roger Koo's martial arts history and achievements, please browse through Master Roger Koo's martial arts history and achievements I am often asked "with someone of your credentials and martial arts history, how did you end up in Cartersville, Metro Atlanta, Georgia?" What led me to developed Koo Self Defense and finally settled in Cartersville was my resignation from Choi Kwang Do (CKD) in November 1991. My departure with CKD was not very pleasant and what they did to me afterwards is a real life story for a movie or a mini series for a television movie. This is a brief summary of the events. I submitted a 24-page letter of resignation to CKD and circulated it to all of their U.S. instructors. Choi had a team of attorneys (changing them often), wealth, advice from former loyal chief instructors, all against one individual (me) who had no friends, no money and no car stranded in Cartersville, Georgia. They pursued me for five long years with many long battles. I fought every one of their battles, won each single one and eventually won the war. My family and I suffered greatly during those times with Choi and his disciples spreading lies and false rumors everywhere. I stayed here in the United States determinated to prove my innocence and this also gave me the greatest opportunity to concentrate on developing the unique Koo Self Defense drills based upon my previous experience in other martial arts and cross training in other types of sports. It took many of the CKD chief instructors years before they eventually discovered for themselves what I said to be true. Moreover, Choi went through the motion of suing me for libel knowing that he had no case whatsoever just to appease his instructors. After deposing many of his so-called witnesses, myself and Choi's himself twice, once in English which had to be stopped as he could no longer understand the English language after one and half hour of deposition and the second time with a Korean's attorney as an interpreter and still could not answer questions pertaining to my 24-page resignation letter. Choi's attorney finally dropped the libel suit against me after his second deposition. Practically 95% of Choi Kwang Do original instructors, world masters and thousands of members have subsequently left CKD since then with amazing stories of their own experiences. To name a few: Prior 1991 Rick Controy (GA, USA), Van Ness (GA, USA), Bess Stenz (GA, USA), John Bishop (GA, USA), Pete Fennelly (GA, USA), Pete Pukish (GA, USA), Brian Hill (GA, USA) 1991 Master Lam Sai Tow (Australia), Master Lee Seng Hock, (Singapore), Master C.S Chan (Chan Martial Arts, New Zealand), Master J.P Kwoo (UK), Michael Cook (GA, USA), Hal Helfenbein (GA, USA), Tom Street (GA, USA), Iris & Kenneth Harper (GA, USA), Tim Young (Michigan, USA), Jim Myers (Michigan, USA), Hank Thorn (Michigan, USA), Gary WIlliams (Michigan, USA). Kwang Choi has been issung franchise agreements with all the Michigan instructors in the State of Michigan up to 1991 without even filing proper application for franchising in that state. 1993 Master James Lim (Canada), Master Sergio Barriga (Maryland, USA), Paul Knipe (Maryland, USA), Iris & Kenneth Harper (GA, USA), Terry Alexandrakos (Sweden/Greece), Kirk Foster (Saudi Arabia), Francisco Pinto (France), Tommy Lee (GA, USA), Dennis Lantzer (GA, USA) 1994 Tommy Cho, (GA, USA), Richard Dellaripa (GA, USA) 1995 Jim Wellsmore (Australia) and Bernie Korent (Australia) 1996 Kelly Chandler (GA, USA), Dwight Werner (Monroe, Michigan) 1997 Bob Lowery (GA, USA), Eric Hennings (GA, USA), Bill Grizzard (GA, USA) 1998 Larry Key (GA, USA), Parviz Nikhoo (GA, USA) plus several Chief Instructors who came over from Scotland, UK to buy 3 Choi Kwang Do studios for $250,000, Kirk Robbins (GA, USA), Roger Wright (GA, USA), Scott & Nancy Lambert (GA, USA) 1999 Henry Woodcock (UK), Gideon Hajioff (UK), Catherine Hall (UK), Martin Harvey (UK), Bob Hawkesford (UK), Peter Jagger (UK), Chris Yates (UK), Matthew Hagger (UK), Kevin Bailey (UK), Scott Coombs (UK), Tim Gale (UK) 2003 Mr. BoBo (Alpharetta Studio, GA, USA), his studio is now part of Joe Corley Karate in Alpharetta, (GA, USA), Mr. Cougar Milland, (North Carolina, USA), Mr. Piyush Khengar,(UK) and Mr Bruce Wood, (Scotland, UK) 2004 Mr.Roberto Parisi, Bedford, Borehamwood and Hemel Hempstead, England, U.K 2005 (January) Master Jugnu Nanda, India (see copy of email from Smitha Vijaykar, General Secretary for Choi Kwang Do in India whose organization under Master Jugnu Nanda has been with Choi Kwang Do Martial Art International since 1992) and March 2005 Mr. Rod Cook, Cairns, Australia Many more Chief Instructors that I might not be aware of around the world continue to leave the organization to this day! The unethical business and martial arts practices of Choi Kwang Do continues. Choi went into partnership with Master Woo Jing Jung and bought the CKD International Headquarters on Wade Green Rd. Master Jung paid the deposit of $100,000 for the building (court records will show that the building was in joint names when originally purchased). When Parviz Nikkhoo (one of my old student from the UK) came over to the United States with a few of his instructors and bought 3 studios from Choi for $250,000, Choi disolved his partnership and use part of the money he gained from the sale of the 3 studios to pay off Master Jung. When Parviz left Choi kwang Do, he contacted me and told me the story. Parviz told me that the studios were not worth the $250,000 that he paid for it (he was convinced that he was helping out the organization just like all of us were). He had a legal contract for the purchase of the 3 studios and managed to get some of his money back from Choi through legal actions. Parviz has now rejoined the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. Master James Lim of Canada is still owed U.S $5,000 for a loan to Choi in 1991! Sergio Barriga put up $5,000 to send Choi and a group of black belts to Colorado State University for a first true scientific research which I organized in 1991 with one of my old student Andy Cornwell from the UK studying for his Master Degree in Sports Science and Biomechanics. Master Barriga has not been repaid that $5,000! Choi makes a claim that his art has been researched which is not true, he gets some people to make comments about it but no actual scientific tests has been conducted or publised except for the one that I organized back in 1991! Choi Kwang Do has a policy that no one fails the colored and black belt tests. With declining memberships after 95% of their original instructors have left, they have added more belts between white to black belts, 18 belts in fact which means more test fees. Furthermore, they have added more tests with fees in-between black belts, go figure! At CKD testings, Choi preaches about martial arts tenets, Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control and Indomitable and yet does not adhere to them! Be warned just like I have stated in my original 24 page resignation letter back in 1991, be weary of the unethical business practices of Choi Kwang Do. Marshall Pereira is no different, I used to bail him out of debt in the UK. He too make a lot of false promises. Recent events in September and October 2001 that has occurred to Master Sergio Barriga, myself and in the United Kingdom has forced me to release my letter (24 pages) of resignation to Choi Kwang Do as well as a few others, click on the link to view. Click Here to read Master Koo plus other instructors Master Koo's reply comments from a signed guestbook From Susan Nagel Master Koo - I've enjoyed reading your website. I don't understand why their is so much bitterness with Choi Kwang Do. All of that seemed to happen quite a while ago and you seem to be doing well. I have 2 friends training in CKD and I am considering joining as well (I've watched their classes and belt testings!) - You seem extremely bitter and unable to move on. Best Wishes Sir! Master Koo's response: On the contrary, I have moved on and continue to develop Koo Self Defense. Do not believe that what I have revealed are all in the pasts. There have been some very recent events as a couple of years ago and even recent ones. Anyone would be bitter considering what they did to me and my family after I left Choi Kwang Do. Here a few examples. Choi and Marshall use other CKD chief instructors to do their dirty work. They fabricated a theft charge and got me arrested in an attempt to get me a felony charge so that I can be deported from the U.S. back in February 1991. We went to court and it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt through substantial evidence which they overlooked that it was all prefabricated on their part and the case was dismissed. Failing that, they attempted to stop my immigrant visa (December 1993) at the U.S. Embassy in London and they failed there too! They incited all their former Chief Instructors here in Georgia to hate me so much that at one of their meeting that one of them brought a shotgun and said "let's go and kill Master Koo and his family." Many of these ex-Choi Kwang Do Chief Instructors, I have personally forgiven and they have revealed a lot of details to me since then. Read all of the other resignation letters from other ex-Chief Instructors of Choi Kwang Do, maybe you will understand. After exposing Kwang Jo Choi for what he is in 1991, you would have thought he would stop there. He continued with others, scamming them to this day, bleeding them as much of their money as he could until they are fed up and leave. They would like everyone to leave quietly and make no wave in order to move onto the next one and so forth. Choi Kwang Do used to have 12 belt levels to Black Belt. Now they have 18 belts' levels and it would cost you $55.00 each time you take a test ready or not, they want you to test. Pay your money and get your belt as you will never fail as it is their policy never to fail anyone regardless of their performance (I mentioned that in my resignation letter in 1991). This policy has never changed here in Georgia to this day. Moreover, they introduced more tests between Black Belt with more test fees attached. Currently they have an accelerated program to get to Black Belts, especially producing new assistant instructors and Chief Instructors quickly in order to open more new studios. They charge around $75.00 for these courses and you have to buy instructors uniform and teach for FREE! Like fitness centers around the country who uses high pressure sales tactics to sell contracts, Choi Kwang Do is employing these same tactics. Their assistant/chief instructors are being taught how to overcome every single objection that one would raise so that they can get a contract signed. After that whether you turn up for training or not, you are obligated to pay. The more contracts sold, the merrier. Recently at their 15th anniversary, they were getting students to take photographs with Kwang Jo Choi and then the students/parents get presented a bill of $35.00 for each photo? They come out with news way for getting more money from their students. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. There are many scandals which have been exposed such as Watergate, Clintongate, Enron and so forth. There are people in this world who are brave enough to expose great injustices, scams and corruptions. There are also lots of people who see things and are too afraid to reveal for their own personal reasons. For example, there are hundreds, if not thousands of girls and women being raped at any given time around this world, the vast majority are too ashamed to reveal what has occurred to them or do not want the ordeal to go to court and face immense emotional trauma. Choi Kwang Do is not the only martial art's organization in the world that has this problem. There are others out there, some are on the Internet and others have yet to be revealed. There are lots of businesses running all sorts of scams out there, and we hear them on the news all the time! Martial arts teach Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit as well as other character traits. We are supposed to set a good example to the children and after reading what others and I have exposed, do you think that Choi Kwang Do is a good role model! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest