Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:08:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #337 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ICHF material (Hindley) 2. Re: 'combat' hapkido & 'combat' TGT (Tom Kennelly) 3. Re: RE: ICHF Material (jakskru) 4. TGT (J.R. West) 5. Re: ICHF Material (Tom Kennelly) 6. Korean martial art titles (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 7. re: A nature park for Koreas' DMZ? (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 8. man-of-the-year (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. Re: Korean martial art titles (Ray) 10. RE: Choke Outs (Robert Martin) 11. Re: Re: ICHF material (tkdtom) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Hindley" To: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:39:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ICHF material Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: "For myself I would not say that ICHF actually "teaches" muscling, but that often this results because folks who are teaching have not be grounded in sound principles about how to use their body, how to impact the partners' body and how to do these things efficiently and effectively. This is not to say that there are NOT people who can't do this, only that I have never seen a concerted effort to improve on the manner in which material is taught at an organizational level. The result seems to be that ICHF produces mediocre practitioners and that competent practitioners seem to almost happen INSPITE of the organization not because of it. My sense is that had Pelligrini taken a more in-sightful approach to what he was doing instead of focusing on building an economic success he might have made a valuable contribution to the Hapkido arts. As it is, he seems to have produced just another McDochang chain, not unlike many others. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce" -------------------------------- A most insightful response Bruce. I know someone who experienced JP a few years back in a one on one confrontation calling his bluff so to speak and he didn't fare to well. This was when he was getting rank beyond others who had been committed Hapkido students for many many years. He was asked about it and couldn't deliver. JP made his bed and know will lay in it. Shame he didn't take the high road. This is what happens when you sacrifice knowledge for money and get promoted so quickly. Power corrupts some people I could go on and on but what's the use! Best wishes Greg Hindley --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 'combat' hapkido & 'combat' TGT Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:54:11 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will interlineate my comments below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Ross" > Mr. Kennelly, Sir, > I have repeatedly acknowledged my limited exposure to Hapkido, yet > never > said that 'combat' hapkido wasn't a martial art. You said that my 'combat' > Tibetan Gopher Tossing was a non-existant MA. Is that because: Ok, its a martial art if you say so. From a Combat Hapkido perspective I can see the same sort of Hapkido that I see in the Dr. Kimm's Hapkido book, the GM Seo seminar I attended, and the GM West DVD I just watched. Mind you that I did not see the exact same Hapkido in CH that I saw from the aforementioned sources. During the GM Seo seminar I saw Hapkido Hyung for the first time. I came to believe that Hyung in TKD was an ineffective use of my training time and trust that GM P has eliminated it for the same reason.. Rather than having me muddle through the description of Combat Hapkido why don't you read what GM P has to say about it on http://www.ichf.com/Info.htm > -I don't take out full page ads monthly in Black Belt magazine and TKD > Times? Ah, the full page ad. That certainly disqualifies anyone from being a genuine martial artist, right? This argument has not credibility. > -I self-promoted myself to Grand Exalted Poohbah? Congratulations/ > - I created a MA from a hodge-podge of techniques from other MA's? Read the web page. > -I bastardized, repackaged, and repriced an existing MA? Again, site your sources for the repricing. I searched the net and could not find a list price for Hapkido. Also could you tell me where the bastardization comes in please? > - I only added the 'combat' prefix to an existing MA as a marketing > ploy? Read the web page. GM P can name it what ever he likes. He would not be the first or last to name his brand of martial arts to reflect his philosophy. > [And yes, vanilla TGT does exist, even has its own web site, or used to]. > So what is a martial art? This is a great question and I see that you have posted this question to the entire list. I will enjoy reading the answers from this knowledgable group of martial artists. > No condesencion intended, but I would like to hear what makes 'combat' > hapkido different or more efficient than 'regular' hapkido, accepting that > you > haven't studied 'regular' hapkido. Read the web page. Its what I have to offer to you. Combat Hapkido is based upon Hapkido with locks, strkes, throws, pressure points..... oops.... I am not repeating the web page. > I never studied Kung Fu or Gracie > grappling, but I can describe generally how MY art [and I don't mean TGT > either] differs and is more effective for my self defense. > A thread for the whole list: what IS a martial art? > pil seung, > Don Ross > > In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or > knowledge of their use. > - Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: ICHF Material Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:09:30 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ohhhhh snap! never thought i would see the day when these two were on the same page, let alone the same book! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: ICHF Material > << what he was doing instead of focusing on building an economic success he > might have made a valuable contribution to the Hapkido arts. As it is, > he seems to have produced just another McDochang chain, not unlike many > others. Thoughts?>>> > > > > I'll make a deal with you, Bruce. If you hold that can of worms I'll > run get the can opener...;) --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:15:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TGT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Let's be a little careful on how we use "Tibetan Gopher Throwing". Remember I own the name (honestly) and the website ( www.tibetangopherthrowing.com ) , although we are not using it right now. I would prefer that it not be used in comparison to some other arts. I also have a picture of Wayne Watkins receiving his 14th dan in TGT from Dr. Kimm (with the standard disclaimer of "Not my student" proudly dispayed......Something Dr. Kimm uses quite often over the last couple of years since his photo has appeared in some rather odd company.)....J. R West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ICHF Material Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:15:18 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maybe instead of looking at it as borrowed from other places in could be viewed as one man's opinion (GM P) about which portions of Hapkido to teach and which portions to discard. I am going to try a quote on you to see if it can better describe what I have been trying to say: "Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul." Bruce Lee in Tao of Jeet Kune Do. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Sims" ? As it is its seems that JP went ahead and essentially borrowed from other >places all the same material that he would have gotten to in the WHF/YMK >Hapkido curriculum had he just stuck around. > > No real point to this. Just musing out loud. FWIW. > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:29:54 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean martial art titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks to Fred Gommels for his great post regarding Korean martial arts terminology! I just wanted to add one thing. Fred wrote: >Kwan: is actually a suffix of the term "chae yook kwan" a common term in >Korea used now days for "dojang". >Chae yook: means fitness, athletic training, or physical education It is useful to remember that "dojang" translates to "place of the way," and that it is also a term applied to monasteries. What is important to us as practitioners is that the choice of term perhaps implies the aim of the training. A chae yook kwan is a modern center for athletic training and/or physical education. A dojang is a place where we practice a way of life that may include spiritual and cognitive training, as well as psychomotor skills. Personally, I prefer the added meaning of a dojang, although I value the democratic spirit and scientific approach of the gym. Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 10:42:17 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: A nature park for Koreas' DMZ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This story brought back some good memories for me. One night while on patrol outside of OP Oulette and the village of Taesong-dong in the DMZ, our squad was lying in the prone in a circle facing outward when some kind of deer I think (it was dark) walked right through the middle of our perimeter. It was some kind of funky, small Korean deer... The DMZ also has some of the BIGGEST pheasants I have ever seen! They are huge. And when you hit one with a Humvee doing about 40mph, feathers go everywhere! I was removing feathers for a few days after that one.. Ok, back to KMA.. James Morgan The DMZ is home to several threatened and rare species of animal and plant life including the red-crown crane, a staple of Asian art, and the white-naped crane. The two are among the world's most endangered birds. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:59:10 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] man-of-the-year Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The October Issue of Black belt Magazine hit the stands today, and the results from the Black Belt Hall of Fame vote is in. Grandmaster HC Hwang of the World Moo Duk Kwan Inc. is the Man of the Year. It makes me proud to be associated with him and to have had the oppertunity to train under his guidance. The Moo Duk Kwan celebrates its 60th anniversary this year and Kwan Jang Nim celebrates his 50th year training in the Moo Duk Kwan. I looked back at the earlier Black Belt magazine cover I believe it was 1986-1989 where HC Hwang and his father Grandmaster Hwang Kee appear on the cover. I compared the Peet Cha Ki of twenty years ago to the 2005 issue and they are almost exacty the same. This is a difficult kick to preform for most practitioners but to preform it at near 60 years old proficiently is great. Congradulations to HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim and the World Moo Duk Kwan Inc. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Korean martial art titles To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Kwan: is actually a suffix of the term "chae yook kwan" a common term in > >Korea used now days for "dojang". > >Chae yook: means fitness, athletic training, or physical education > > It is useful to remember that "dojang" translates to "place of the way," > and that it is also a term applied to monasteries. What is important to > us as practitioners is that the choice of term perhaps implies the aim > of the training. A chae yook kwan is a modern center for athletic > training and/or physical education. A dojang is a place where we > practice a way of life that may include spiritual and cognitive > training, as well as psychomotor skills. Personally, I prefer the added > meaning of a dojang, although I value the democratic spirit and > scientific approach of the gym. Reminds me of my first trip to Seoul and my 'adventure' to locate the SBD MDK. I understood from Robert Young the approximate location, and headed to that part of town. Once there I started asking people on the street, in a Hardee's, a police station, a bookstore and finally a bank where this place was. No one could understand me. When I attempted some horse-stance middle punches, knife hand blocks and side kicks they just looked at me like I was crazy. Yes, I've seen that look many times before... :) Finally I entered a bank and went up to a teller. I said things like dojang, Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, Moo Dok Kwan, etc. Finally I just said dojang over and over again. The male teller finally indicated that it was just down on the next corner. I thanked him and walked down to the corner. There I found a bodybuilding gym. I'm thinking... is he trying to tell me something? Disappointed I looked around for another place to inquire when I saw the bank teller running down the street after me. He indicated that he now knew what I was looking for. This time he walked with me, around the corner and up the street two or three blocks and there we found the SBD MDK dojang. Nice fellows those bank tellers... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Choke Outs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually, young males are doing this to enchance certain sensations. There was a local case of an 11 year old who was found dead in the bathroom -- hung by the belt off his bath robe. It was reported as sucide. His parents were very quick to come out and say that wasn't the case. He hung himself by accident while masterbating. How the he** does an 11 year old find out about this stuff? They wanted other parents to know about it. Robert Martin Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 17:13:40 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Choke Outs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, that's pretty scary that kids are hanging themselves to "get high". Of course, it's common knowledge that adults do similar things to heighten the sensation of certain "activities", but this is the first time I've heard of kids doing this as an alternative to drugs. The scary part is that you can't tell when you're about to go under. I was flat out put to sleep by a cross collar choke by a sparring partner last year. I was fighting off the choke, and the next thing I remember is everyone looking at me like I had just died. I had no idea I was even going under. I thought I was fine, and the next thing you know I wake up and wonder where the hell I am. There's certainly no "high" associated with this either before, during, or after. I felt like I had just woken up from a fitful night of sleep. In fact, I sat out the rest of the session because I just didn't feel "all there". I certainly didn't feel good or high. Strange. Bring back the good old days when we just huffed gasoline like civilized people. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "tkdtom" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ICHF material Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:04:33 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow, I know someone who knew someone that......... I think we just experienced a drive by disparagement. How about adding some times, dates, witnesses, and etc to supposed events like you have described below. As far as someone of lower rank getting the upper hand against a higher ranking individual I recall one or two times during TKD sparring, out of at least a hundred matches, where I actually kicked my instructor in the head so I must be better right? Comparisons of rank and fighting prowness must take into account so many other factors like surroundings, health, age, preception of threat and etc. While the instructors and GM's we train under are great martial artists they are not gods. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hindley" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ICHF material > Bruce" > -------------------------------- > A most insightful response Bruce. > I know someone who experienced JP a few years back in a one on one > confrontation calling his bluff so to speak and he didn't fare to well. > This was when he was getting rank beyond others who had been committed > Hapkido students for many many years. He was asked about it and couldn't > deliver. > JP made his bed and know will lay in it. > Shame he didn't take the high road. > This is what happens when you sacrifice knowledge for money and get > promoted so quickly. > Power corrupts some people > I could go on and on but what's the use! > > Best wishes > Greg Hindley > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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