Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:30:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #341 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=NO_FORMS,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Lok hapkido school (b macdonald) 2. ICHF Material (Bruce Sims) 3. HapKiDo & hyungs (Don Kirsch) 4. Re: The Government controlling Martial Art Corruption (Craig Zeigler) 5. John Pellegrini Bashing (jakskru) (Don Kirsch) 6. Re: JP Scrutiny (Beungood8@aol.com) 7. hapkido (J R Hilland) 8. UFC (Jye nigma) 9. NKMAA Seminar (Kevin Janisse) 10. Practical Application of the Chang Hon Hyungs? (. DixiePride) 11. RE: Lok hapkido school (vic77053-dojanglist@yahoo.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "b macdonald" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Lok hapkido school Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:45:24 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you look in the TKD Encyclopedia you will see the koren word for instructor is SIFU >From: "Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Lok hapkido school >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:40:29 -0500 > >.I just had a look and went to the photo section and found a tab for "Sifu" >- funny I never heard a Korean instructor called Sifu, it's always been >Sensei :-) > > > >I've seen the same thing over the years. It think many MA schools adapt a >bit to fit into the community. For instance, when in Texas, all carbonated >soft drinks are called a coke and you specify which flavor. In Florida, >it's a washeteria not a Laundromat, and so on. > >Many of the MA schools I've seen have "Karate" above the door and teach; >Tae >Kwon Do or Kung Fu or something other than Karate. Perhaps in British >Columbia, Canada, most of the schools are Kung Fu schools and everyone >calls >the teacher: Sifu. "When in Rome." > > > >Any way, about the Sensei thing, you guys crack me up. > > > >Gordon >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] ICHF Material Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "....This is why calling a collection of self-defense techniques ‘hapkido’, does not mean that one is practicing hapkido. I have spent over three decades studying hapkido and I still have a lot to learn. I am certainly not qualified to say that all the hapkido teachers before me were wrong and this or that part of hapkido should be discarded or changed...." Great post! I for one have NO interest in talking about Pelligrini one more minute. I DO have an interest in discussing the nature of those commecial behaviors that produce activities such as the organization he developed. Talking about HIM just gives his people free advertising. But my sense is that unless we have a true and deep appreciation of the sort of thinking that contributes to such groups experiencing success we run the risk of producing the sort of thing that was mentioned by Chang, Gedo in the quote published in the last issue of DD. BTW: I don't know about anyone else but I never got the feeling that Korea was somehow immune to misuse or abuse of its MA traditions because the ROK gov. held some special sway over the MA. Personally I would like to hear more about how things are going in the UK with the way THEY do things there to know how governmental intervention is working. Thoughts? Anyone? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:47:02 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] HapKiDo & hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just to set the record straight John P. did not remove hyungs from HapKiDo . As I've been taught HapKiDo in its original form do not have hyungs . I would think a 9th Dan in HapKiDo would have known that and not be claiming to have improved HapKiDo by removing hyungs from his "improved" style. Just stating the truth... Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 07:12:42 -0400 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] The Government controlling Martial Art Corruption Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye nigma wrote: >I was reading an interview of Grand Master Gedo Chang, and when asked: Do you think Masters have an obligation to ensure the quality of other corrupt Masters? >He replied: "We Masters do not want the Martial Art society corrupted. We know people who open up a school after 3 months training, insisting that they are a 3rd Degree Black Belt. Others after a year claim themselves Masters, this such thing should be corrected. >In the Oriental countries we do not have this problem because of the governments strict controls. In the rest of the world like America, there are no such controls. The best way to stop this corruption is for the government to establish certain regulations, in this way false leaders of Martial Art society should disappear. >As Masters we can not go and tell them that they are not right. It is unfortunate that some fo the false Masters are very capable business men, thus attracting more students. Well trained Masters sometimes have problems because of lack of students if they are not as adept in business. The corruption within Martial Arts society should be stopped otherwise we will simply turn into a marketplace." > > > >My question is could it ever be a good thing to have the government involved in Martial Arts? > Jye > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > That all depends on how much the government is involved. Unfortunately, the US government has a habit of forcing its influence on things to the point where regulation would stunt the art. Although some good would probably come of this, I would like to have an idea of exactly what kind of regulation they would impose. Perhaps prohibiting full contact sparring? or simply regulating the business end of the art by requiring certification for instructors. Something similar to the way you have to have a business license. What kind of regulation do the Oriental governments impose? Just my $0.01 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:12:59 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] John Pellegrini Bashing (jakskru) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This will be my last post on the subject but is anyone seriously trying to compare John P. to Grand Master Choi. All I can say about John P. is the situation reminds me of the scene in the Wizard of Oz when the curtain is drawn back and the Wizard is exposed as being a little old man pulling strings .... Just stating things as I see them, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 08:15:15 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: JP Scrutiny Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 8/21/2005 7:05:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: that everytime someone starts a "new" system, or modifies an existing system they are automatically subjected to widespread criticism and scrutiny...did the masters who developed the martial arts systems we study today go through this? probably. what was said when aiki-jujutsu was "streamlined" into other arts, like judo, jujutsu, bjj, or even hapkido? were the men who did it subjected to the same scrutiny now put upon John Pelligrini? if you think about it, G.M. Choi had no proof of his training (in writing), only his word that is to this day still argued upon as to its authenticity, yet here many of us stand training in HKD. also, about the "for profit" thing that was talked about....lets be frank, if any martial arts instructor is making a living or a profit off of teaching, he is in it for the money...plain and simple. if it was just strictly about the teaching, passing the art, spread of knowledge, love of the art, etc. he or she would do it for free. so, if JP is making a living on the CHKD system he There is a big difference between the pioneers who "streamlined" Aikijujitsu and JP, they Mastered a system and adapted what they learned or made it better suited for their current needs. They also could walk the walk and talk the talk due in part to HARD training and many years spent training in austere conditions, not engaged in extremeis photo Ops with people they spent a few hours watching training from the side lines in a suit sans dobuk or sweat. Most of the people commenting on JP were in WHF and saw his antics and skill level and his exodus only to become a 10th Dan of his own system after coming into the organization a 2nd or 3rd dAN. lol, need to do is watch his basic movement on any of his techniques on any of his tapes to know all you need to know about him. FWIW. Jacko --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:55:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Kennelly: I understand that you are new to posting on this forum, but there is never a need for such hostility. My comments were generic about hapkido and the martial arts in general. I NEVER said anything about you. I did not use any specific names such as the ICHF as there are MANY organizations with an agenda other than prompting the traditional art of hapkido. Very sad really. Which is what, in my opinion, a good organization ONLY does. I was in taekwondo for over 25 years till hapkido took over my life and I have spent 31 years as a hapkidoin. So I can say without a doubt that there are many taekwondo instructors, some on this list, that teach taekwondo as a COMPLETE self defense martial art. That is a fact and they are VERY good at it. I am sorry your experience in taekwondo was not that rewarding. As far as 'combat' hapkido, if I was promoted as fast as the founder of your organization I would have been his rank before he got his honorary chodan. I have never met them man, but after viewing one of his tapes once, I can only say that I was disappointed, I won't go into details. With very few exceptions, there are no forms in traditional hapkido. So why would he eliminate what is not there? I was not attempting a smear campaign, I am not sure where you pulled that one from as I was simply stating facts, not even about any specific martial art or organization. Changing what I said does not make it different. So I do not understand your hostility or how it relates to that comment. Take head from my teachers quote? I can only assume that is yet another attempt at an insult. But if you knew my time in rank and value of time in rank (just look in the DD archives) you would not have said such a statement. I do have respect for many of the ICHF members and there are some talented ones. But traditional hapkido is not a commodity it is a path, a way of life. It does make me sad when traditional mudo is bastardized in any form or fashion, and it should. I am very sorry that you feel hostile during a discussion of opinions and facts, but please don't feel that way. As Ray stated: "Fortunately I do not believe there has been any bashing what-so-ever of JP. Just an open and honest exchange of information.". I feel the same way. I do not feel that trying to fix what is not broken is useful, as traditional hapkido is the greatest thing since sliced bread, in my opinion. But if you are happy in his organization, then I am happy for you. Please do not reply to this message as this forum is not a place for such hostility as I will not respond and due to a recently injury it is difficult for me to type one handed. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.hapkidoselfdefense.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] UFC Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey everyone, I just watched the UFC last night and saw something refreshing...a striker winning against a wrestler. The striker was able to keep the wrestler away from him using solid striking techniques and good footwork. Jye __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Kevin Janisse" To: Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:18:24 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It was GREAT seminar this past weekend! GM Timmerman provided another stimulating (ouch) day of joint-locks & pressure points. We also worked on HapKiDo movements through the use of Forms including the meaning of the movements. It was great to see everyone's participation in the Sword handling and cutting session (the campers took lot's of kindling back to the campsite). We wrapped up the day with soft breaking and knife techniques. Thank you GM Timmerman for making this event such a success! I look forward to next year. DD members, remember that this weekend GM Timmerman will be in Florida to do another NKMAA seminar with Master Thomas Gordan. It was great seeing many of you again! Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 10 From: ". DixiePride" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:46:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Practical Application of the Chang Hon Hyungs? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello,I have been training recently with a 5th Dan Taekwondo who I am very impressed with.He teaches Taekwondo and Hapkido.I noticed that he teaches practical applications of the hyungs including wristlocks and throws from the Chang Hon Hyungs.I had a 6th degree, several years ago, tell me that a lot of the movements in the Chang Hon set were originally wristlocks and throws.If you see for example the "Chon Ji" hyung shown as wristlocks,strikes and throws, in my case, it was like a light bulb came on over my head "oh yeah thats what thats for besides just a block and a punch".It has given me a new perpective on Hyungs I thought I knew quite well.Have any of you seen the hyungs practically applied as wristlocks,strikes and throws? I wonder why General Choi never taught them as such?Or maybe he did and I am just too low in rank to realize it?When I look at the practical applications in General Choi's "Legacy" Cd I only see blocks and strikes.Do you think that since our patterns were based on his knowledge of Shotokan that the movements, practically applied ,as I have seen them recently, are Shotokan based and General Choi just chose not to teach them as such?Your opinion would be greatly appreciated as I am very curious about this. Sincerely, Keg _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:27:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Lok hapkido school To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net really I thought that was Chinese ~ but not knowing either I don't really know. b macdonald wrote:If you look in the TKD Encyclopedia you will see the koren word for instructor is SIFU >From: "Gordon" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Lok hapkido school >Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 08:40:29 -0500 > >.I just had a look and went to the photo section and found a tab for "Sifu" >- funny I never heard a Korean instructor called Sifu, it's always been >Sensei :-) > > > >I've seen the same thing over the years. It think many MA schools adapt a >bit to fit into the community. For instance, when in Texas, all carbonated >soft drinks are called a coke and you specify which flavor. In Florida, >it's a washeteria not a Laundromat, and so on. > >Many of the MA schools I've seen have "Karate" above the door and teach; >Tae >Kwon Do or Kung Fu or something other than Karate. Perhaps in British >Columbia, Canada, most of the schools are Kung Fu schools and everyone >calls >the teacher: Sifu. "When in Rome." > > > >Any way, about the Sensei thing, you guys crack me up. > > > >Gordon >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang Thank you, Steven van Ooyen --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest