Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:15:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #342 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: John Pellegrini Bashing (jakskru) (Ray) 2. Gov't control of martial arts? (tkdsid@aol.com) 3. RE: NKMAA Seminar (Thomas Gordon) 4. dojang and organizations (J R Hilland) 5. hapkido scrutiny (J R Hilland) 6. RE: Lok hapkido school (Robert Mitchell) 7. RE: Practical Application of the Chang Hon Hyungs (Robert Mitchell) 8. Splits (courage kakaney) 9. Pelligrini Bashing (Bruce Sims) 10. RE: dojang and organizations (michael tomlinson) 11. Re: hapkido (Tom Kennelly) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] John Pellegrini Bashing (jakskru) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm back home again in sunny California after almost a month 'back East'... As someone pointed out, one place that Mr. P screwed up, imho, is in calling his new creation "Hapkido". And then, of course, going on to claim that he is the Father of Modern Hapkido. If someone wants to create a new art form... ok, fine. But don't attempt to use the name of a martial art that is already well defined, well known, and with many legit high ranking (but not 9th Dan) Masters. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:59:33 -0400 From: tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Gov't control of martial arts? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've been ranting and raving about this all year. Should the government control martial arts? Well, in Queens,NY there is a master that recently ripped off 30 student for kukkiwon fees,there is the Chubby Wannabee that does this all the time. Do you think their student wished there was an office they could turn to???? Control martial arts???? YESSSSSS!!!! --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Seminar Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Janisse, Thank you for the plug. We are looking forward to Grandmaster Timmerman being here in Northwest Florida for our seminar this coming weekend. Glad to hear yours did well. From one coast to another. :) www.gordonmartialarts.com/seminar082705 Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:07:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] dojang and organizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> It appears to me that there is a direct relationship to the unnecessary and disadvantageous isolationism present in today's martial arts with the behavior of many organizations. There are many dojang and organizations that simply do not play well with others; for lack of a better term, and you would think with the advent of the Internet this would have disappeared, but it did not. It is just as prevalent up here in the Dakota's as it was in Texas. Admittedly some organizations are only interested in offering you a 'black belt' course and others are nothing more than 'mutual admiration societies'. But if you were never taught that no matter how long you have been teaching that you are a student first and you should learn more about your art and improve your technique at every given opportunity; and that your legacy should be nothing but the promotion of the art that you spent a life time studying, you are going to end up with an agenda that could even be detrimental to the art. Just a thought.... Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:10:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido scrutiny Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jack, you hit it on the head with one exception: "if any martial arts instructor is making a living or a profit off of teaching, he is in it for the money...plain and simple." Can't say I agree with that part. I know many (and you do to) that took a pay cut to teach full time for the joy of the art or simply do not take advantage of their students when they very easily could. Providing a 'value added service' and feeding your family is a lot different than selling dan rank to the highest bidder. BTW, I remember watching a video tape of a well known commercial teacher who claimed he was teaching hapkido, and when he said "there is no such thing as a balance break in hapkido", I had to turn the tape off, after all, it is the first thing I learned as a white belt as is commonly taught as the first theory of basic motion. There are many that are just more interested in being a hapkido teacher than being a hapkido student and instead of learning something new, they would rather promote themselves. Maybe that is a direct result of our fast-food instant-satisfaction society we live in... Please note that the term: "value added service" was originally told to me by a Catholic priest who was a full time priest and definitely not in it for the money... Jere R. Hilland www.hapkidoselfdefense.com PS. On a personal note, I just wanted to publicly say thanks for all the emails and phone calls concerning my accident last Friday with the partial amputation of my ki finger on my dominant hand. I am getting good at typing one handed. My fret boards are just sitting here in the recording studio staring at me, but the surgeon is confident I will play again. I will still be teaching at the 23rd International coming up in Jackson in a few weeks and I am looking forward to being a student again... But in the interim, I have a new mediation CD available free at www.jrhilland.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Robert Mitchell" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:27:23 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Lok hapkido school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone - great discussions! Good to see the spirit is alive, and shingin in so many different facets. Hey I thought that Sifu is Chinese, but not Mandarin, can't remember which dialect/language - probably would have to be one of the southern dialects though, Cantonese maybe? Sabonim - by whichever way it is spelt and pronounced is the Koreanisation of Sifu with the normal honorific attached. I find that Korean terms in the martial arts are a strange amalgam of Korean, Sino-Korean, Chinese, Nipon-Korean and Japanese. And many of them are technical terms rather than more generally understood terms, borrowed from other endeavours, ie Buddhism. Robert (Tae Kwon-do instructor, Hapkido insructor, HaeDong GumDo assistant instructor) Original Message From: @really I thought that was Chinese ~ but not knowing either I don't really know. b macdonald wrote:If you look in the TKD Encyclopedia you will see the koren word for instructor is SIFU@ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Robert Mitchell" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:27:23 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Practical Application of the Chang Hon Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the (ITF-based) Tae kwon-do organisation I was involved with till last March I was the only instructor (of about 200) who knew and taught the close-quarter applications of the Chong-han patterns. And yes they include locks, throws, pressure point strikes. But I learnt them from my limited exposure to Shotokan and Shaolin Kung-fu, and from experimenting (reverse engineering). The Master used to tell us that such things were included in the Hyung - but would never demonstrate or teach any. Robert TKD/Hapkido/Haedong Gumdo -----Original Message----- From: ". DixiePride" Hello,I have been training recently with a 5th Dan Taekwondo who I am very impressed with.He teaches Taekwondo and Hapkido.I noticed that he teaches practical applications of the hyungs including wristlocks and throws from the Chang Hon Hyungs.I had a 6th degree, several years ago, tell me that a lot of the movements in the Chang Hon set were originally wristlocks and throws.If you see for example the "Chon Ji" hyung shown as wristlocks,strikes and throws, in my case, it was like a light bulb came on over my head "oh yeah thats what thats for besides just a block and a punch".It has given me a new perpective on Hyungs I thought I knew quite well.Have any of you seen the hyungs practically applied as wristlocks,strikes and throws? I wonder why General Choi never taught them as such?Or maybe he did and I am just too low in rank to realize it?When I look at the practical applications in General Choi's "Legacy" Cd I only see blocks and strikes.Do you think that since our patterns were based on his knowledge of Shotokan that the movements, practically applied ,as I have seen them recently, are Shotokan based and General Choi just chose not to teach them as such?Your opinion would be greatly appreciated as I am very curious about this. Sincerely, Keg _________________________________________________________________ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:41:19 -0700 (PDT) From: courage kakaney To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Splits Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Everyone. I want to know the best way to work on my splits. I do split but with some difficulty. Have you seen the picture on the korean section of martialartsresource.com home page; yeah that is the split I want to do. What about Jacky Chan's WHO AM I, The last two guys he fought with in the movie ; one did a simillar split, very wonderfull. So can anyone tell me the best way to do that split. Thank you very much. --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 06:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: Ray Terry Subject: [The_Dojang] Pelligrini Bashing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....i was thinking about this thread at work today, and i think that it is amazing that everytime someone starts a "new" system, or modifies an existing system they are automatically subjected to widespread criticism and scrutiny...did the masters who developed the martial arts systems we study today go through this? probably. what was said when aiki-jujutsu was "streamlined" into other arts, like judo, jujutsu, bjj, or even hapkido?...." Dear Jakscru: This is exactly why I am not intersted in discussing Pelligrini perse. To my mind what would be more productive is if we would discuss those qualities that make such things as the Pelligrini Experience happen. For instance WHY IS IT that after 50 years modern Hapkido HAS no option for introducing modification from WITHIN the system. Why are Hapkido practitioners unable to get together and formulate such things as a common terminolgy and common curriculum? Why do folks find it necessary to constantly split off from the original group AND REINVENT HE WHEEL time and again rather than build on past experiences. My sense is that we will not discuss these more pressing issues because it would mean working together and respecting each other as equals and the nature of MA as it is perceived today does not hold with that. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dojang and organizations Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:57:26 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere writes::: It appears to me that there is a direct relationship to the unnecessary and disadvantageous isolationism present in today's martial arts with the behavior of many organizations. There are many dojang and organizations that simply do not play well with others; for lack of a better term, and you would think with the advent of the Internet this would have disappeared, but it did not. It is just as prevalent up here in the Dakota's as it was in Texas. Admittedly some organizations are only interested in offering you a 'black belt' course and others are nothing more than 'mutual admiration societies'. But if you were never taught that no matter how long you have been teaching that you are a student first and you should learn more about your art and improve your technique at every given opportunity; and that your legacy should be nothing but the promotion of the art that you spent a life time studying, you are going to end up with an agenda that could even be detrimental to the art. Just a thought.... Very well said..this IMHO is what it is all about. Michael --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:19:45 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Again I will interlineate my comments below even though you asked me not to respond. I do not know why you would not want a free flowing exchange of opinions and ideas. . ----- Original Message ----- From: "J R Hilland" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:55 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido > Mr. Kennelly: I understand that you are new to posting on this forum, I am too lazy to do the research but I have been on this forum for years but just got tired of the Pellegrini bashing. > but > there is never a need for such hostility. Any hostility you detect is in your own mind. Since the entire discussion was about ICHF and then you state the following: "Unfortunately, no country is immune to those with 'paper' who obtained it without earning the rank or bothering to really learn the finer details of the art, or the art itself for that matter.". it was not hard to make the leap that this was further Pellegrini bashing. >My comments were generic about > hapkido and the martial arts in general. I NEVER said anything about you. > I > did not use any specific names such as the ICHF as there are MANY > organizations with an agenda other than prompting the traditional art of > hapkido. Very sad really. Which is what, in my opinion, a good > organization > ONLY does. I was in taekwondo for over 25 years till hapkido took over my > life Mine too. TKD does not compare to Hapkido when it comes to self defense in my opinion. >and I have spent 31 years as a hapkidoin. So I can say without a doubt > that there are many taekwondo instructors, some on this list, that teach > taekwondo as a COMPLETE self defense martial art. That is a fact and they > are VERY good at it. I am sorry your experience in taekwondo was not that > rewarding. I enjoyed TKD but did not find its self defense techniques to be in the same league with Hapkido. >As far as 'combat' hapkido, if I was promoted as fast as the > founder of your organization I would have been his rank before he got his > honorary chodan. I have never met them man, but after viewing one of his > tapes once, I can only say that I was disappointed, I won't go into > details. Why not go into detail rather than just cast doubt about the man and move on. > With very few exceptions, there are no forms in traditional hapkido. So > why > would he eliminate what is not there? Maybe I am making an assumption here but when I attended a GM Seo seminar they were performing Hyung. I welcome enlightenment on this topic. How many folks have Hyung as part of their Hapkido program. > I was not attempting a smear campaign, > I am not sure where you pulled that one from as I was simply stating > facts, I can only suggest you examine your motives again. > not even about any specific martial art or organization. Changing what I > said does not make it different. So I do not understand your hostility There goes that hostility word again. I am not sure where that is coming from. > or > how it relates to that comment. Take head from my teachers quote? I can > only > assume that is yet another attempt at an insult. But if you knew my time > in > rank and value of time in rank (just look in the DD archives) you would > not > have said such a statement. Actually I am well aware of your achievements and I suspect I was quite surprised when you weighted in on the topic as you did. I can you assure you I have been reading and respecting your posts for years. >I do have respect for many of the ICHF members > and there are some talented ones. But traditional hapkido is not a > commodity > it is a path, a way of life. It does make me sad when traditional mudo is > bastardized in any form or fashion, and it should. Why is it hard to believe that a martial art can evolve. I know I am parroting someone else on this list but we do get smarter about subjects like Hapkido so why can it not be improved? It was not handed down on a tablet from heaven you know. The founders are not gods but mortal men, who created an effective martial art, but that does not mean it cannot be improved upon. > I am very sorry that you > feel hostile during a discussion of opinions and facts, but please don't > feel that way. There goes that hostile word. I certainly think you got my post wrong. > As Ray stated: "Fortunately I do not believe there has been > any bashing what-so-ever of JP. Just an open and honest exchange of > information.". I feel the same way. I do not feel that trying to fix what > is > not broken is useful, as traditional hapkido is the greatest thing since > sliced bread, in my opinion. To fix implies it is broken but to evolve and improve is what man does. You may not feel it is always for the better however. > But if you are happy in his organization, then > I am happy for you. Please do not reply to this message as this forum is > not > a place for such hostility Hmmm.... do I detect a theme here? > as I will not respond and due to a recently > injury it is difficult for me to type one handed. > I hope you heal quickly. > Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND > www.hapkidoselfdefense.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest