Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:03:15 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #343 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Pelligrini Bashing (Ray) 2. Re: hapkido (Ray) 3. MDK trademark application status (Ray) 4. Hapkido (Darren and Elaine) 5. common terminology & curriculum (Gordon) 6. Open question (RE: "Bashing") (Brian Ingold) 7. GM In Sun Seo (J. R. West) 8. Modification of Hapkido (Patrick L) 9. Hapkido (Don Ross) 10. Re: Open question (RE: "Bashing") (Ray) 11. RE: John Pellegrini (Master Mark Seidel) 12. Connelly Comments (firstpe315@aol.com) 13. When Governments get involved (Dave Zapencki) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Pelligrini Bashing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Why are Hapkido practitioners unable to get together and formulate such > things as a common terminolgy and common curriculum? Bruce, can you name a larger more popular art that does do that? Sure, some smaller and tightly controlled (trademarked) martial arts like Hwarangdo or Kuk Sul Won or Soo Bahk Do do that. But larger and more diverse arts like Taekwondo or Aikido or Ju-Jitsu or Eskrima or Tai Chi or Kempo have never been able to do that. I believe the reasons are rather obvious... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Maybe I am making an assumption here but when I attended a GM Seo seminar > they were performing Hyung. I welcome enlightenment on this topic. How > many folks have Hyung as part of their Hapkido program. Gm Seo teaches Kuk Sul Won, yes it was once Kuk Sul Hapkido, but the point being is that the KSW forms were added later. Rudy, do you know if they were added in the 1960s? I do not believe that Hapkido as taught by GM Ji or GM Choi ever had any forms. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK trademark application status Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fyi... I was received notification of the status of the trademark application for the words Moo Duk Kwan. "Current Status: Final review prior to publication has been completed, application will be published for opposition." Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Trademark application status. Moo Duk Kwan (words only): MOO DUK KWAN Standard Character claim: Yes Current Status: Final review prior to publication has been completed, application will be published for opposition. Date of Status: 2005-07-30 Filing Date: 2004-04-19 The Information will be/was published in the Official Gazette on 2005-09-13 Transformed into a National Application: No Register: Principal Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 110 Attorney Assigned: MILTON PRISCILLA W Employee Location Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section Date In Location: 2005-07-30 LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD 1. U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, Inc. Address: U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, Inc. 20 Millburn Avenue Springfield, NJ 07081 United States Legal Entity Type: NON-PROFIT CORPORATION State or Country Where Organized: New Jersey Phone Number: (973) 467-3971 Fax Number: (973) 467-5716 GOODS AND/OR SERVICES International Class: 041 Educational services, namely, teaching and instruction in the field of martial arts and the practice and regulation of a martial art First Use Date: 1974-01-31 First Use in Commerce Date: 1974-01-31 ADDITIONAL INFORMATION Disclaimer: KWAN Translation: The Korean words as translated to English have the following meaning: MOO means "stop spear" or "military"; DUK means "virtue"; and KWAN means "training hall". Prior Registration Number(s): 1443675 PROSECUTION HISTORY 2005-08-24 - Notice of publication 2005-05-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed 2005-05-20 - Assigned To LIE 2005-05-14 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam) 2005-05-06 - Amendment From Applicant Entered 2005-04-26 - Communication received from applicant 2005-04-26 - PAPER RECEIVED 2005-03-31 - NON-FINAL ACTION E-MAILED 2005-03-31 - Non-Final Action Written 2005-01-13 - Amendment From Applicant Entered 2004-12-28 - Communication received from applicant 2004-12-28 - PAPER RECEIVED 2004-11-24 - Non-final action e-mailed 2004-11-24 - Non-Final Action Written 2004-11-11 - Case file assigned to examining attorney 2004-04-28 - New Application Entered In Tram CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION Correspondent Charles P. Kennedy (Attorney of record) Charles P. Kennedy LERNER, DAVID, LITTENBERG, KRUMHOLZ & ME 600 SOUTH AVE W STE 3 WESTFIELD, NJ 07090-1497 Phone Number: (908) 654-5000 Fax Number: (908) 654-7866 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Darren and Elaine" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 18:55:00 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi folks I didn't know GM Seo did hapkido I only know him from Kuk Sool Won and Kido association --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gordon" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:02:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] common terminology & curriculum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Previously posted: .Why are Hapkido practitioners unable to get together and formulate such things as a common terminology and common curriculum? I believe there are common terminologies, curriculum, hyungs/patterns/poomse, stances, strikes, blocks and kicks for all the Korean MAs as they are Korean. I believe there are different "flavors" depending on; the teacher's experience, the local region, the school's lineage and adherence to one's original teaching. Just as in the north of the United States you can get Yankee pot roast and in the South East you can get grits with anything. In the South West you can get spicy "Tex-Mex" cooking and in California you can get anything on a salad. Still, all are food. All Korean MAs are Korean. As to why we bicker amongst ourselves. we are, after all, only human. We are mostly "A" type personality men. We are therefore the heads of our families, the hunter/protectors. Being so, we want our way when it comes to something we are passionate about. With some its cars, with some its sports, with some its women. With us its Korean MAs. As far as getting together. this forum is far reaching and a good start. There are tons of other MA forums. Here are a couple. Check out: http://www.bullshido.net/ http://www.karateforums.com/ Gordon --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:16:52 -0500 From: Brian Ingold To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Open question (RE: "Bashing") Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To our senior's on the list: How would you characterize the reasons for finding more emotionally charged Hapkido-based debate on the DD? -more readers practice HapKiDo? -no "World Headquarters"? -roots of technique/physics? -more cause for emotion? - ???? Only respectfully curious... Brian --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J. R. West" To: Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:41:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM In Sun Seo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tom wrote: "Maybe I am making an assumption here but when I attended a GM Seo seminar they were performing Hyung. I welcome enlightenment on this topic". First off, GM Seo is most certainly NOT a Hapkido man, but rather Kuk Sool Won, and KSW has forms, Hapkido (traditionally) does not....Secondly: GM Seo has stated that he is NOT Mr. Pellegrini's teacher. Thirdly: Like Master Hilland, I have viewed Mr. Pellegrini's tapes, and his motion is very sub-par, especially for someone that has been doing what he does for almost 20 years. I agree with the idea of making a system of self defense techniques available for members of the MA community that are more kick-punch oriented, but I would have chosen a different name. I have seen Mr. Pellegrini and his students claim that others, namely Dr. Kimm, have done precisely the same thing, that is, change things up and reorganize. The obvious difference here is that Dr. Kimm was a black belt for 41 years when he formed Hanmudo in 1989......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:47:44 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Modification of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, Although I have parsed the comment from Mr. Sims post, I would like to weigh in generically on this topic. >For instance WHY IS IT that after 50 years modern Hapkido HAS no option for introducing modification from WITHIN the system. < Hapkido has options for modification, however it has been my experience that most innovation is attempted by Black Belts in the 2nd and 3rd degree range. Due to their relative lack of experience, they frequently try to incorporate Wiz-bang demo technique, rather than sound Hapkido PRINCIPLE based innovation. In addition, most "New" Hapkido technique is only technique they/we have not learned yet. I "created" some "new" technique as a 5th degree to teach at a Hapkido seminar. My Master approved them, and they were well recieved. Imagine my suprise, when a few months later, at an Open Seminar, a Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu 5th degree taught the same technique! I would love to make additions to my cirriculum, and I will do so when it is MY time. I respectfully try to influence my Master for practical changes, and will wait my time to make changes he is reluctant to make. My respect for my Master, and his teachers, and my respect for the effort required to Master this art gives me patience. I have only been learning Hapkido for 32 years. The art is in no hurry to be improved. Patrick --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Don Ross" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:04:38 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Kennelly, Sir, You wrote: "Why is it hard to believe that a martial art can evolve. I know I am parroting someone else on this list but we do get smarter about subjects like Hapkido so why can it not be improved? It was not handed down on a tablet from heaven you know. The founders are not gods but mortal men, who created an effective martial art, but that does not mean it cannot be improved upon." One question, Sir [and imho this applies to ALL MA 'improving']: Before a person 'improves' a MA or recreates it in a 'new and improved' version, should he master the core art being 'improved' first? Many times, I suspect that 'modern' variations of the more established MA's are created for economic and ego reasons than to 'correct' any 'deficiencies'. After all, most [all?] MA's had the 'Do' and its attendant philosophies added AFTER the original MA was created and evolved to effectively fulfill its primary mission: so that when the dust settles, you are standing and your opponent isn't. Remember, there is NO superior martial art, only superior martial artists. pil seung, Don Ross In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use. - Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Open question (RE: "Bashing") To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To our senior's on the list: > How would you characterize the reasons for finding more emotionally charged > Hapkido-based debate on the DD? We can get just as hot debating Kukki-TKD vs. ITF TKD or Tang Soo Do vs. Soo Bahk Do or ??? Not all conflict resides within Hapkido. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] John Pellegrini Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:13:42 -0400 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree Ray, however I took a seminar several years ago at a NAPMA convention and I volunteered to be GM P's partner and I can assure you all that his moves were real, effective and painful. I would add that having taken Hapkido there was a very different articulation of technique. Therefore he might have been better served using a unique name. But he has made 10's of thousands many times over on his seminars and CD's; obviously a good businessman Mark -----Original Message----- From: Ray [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:43 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] John Pellegrini Bashing (jakskru) I'm back home again in sunny California after almost a month 'back East'... As someone pointed out, one place that Mr. P screwed up, imho, is in calling his new creation "Hapkido". And then, of course, going on to claim that he is the Father of Modern Hapkido. If someone wants to create a new art form... ok, fine. But don't attempt to use the name of a martial art that is already well defined, well known, and with many legit high ranking (but not 9th Dan) Masters. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:34:43 -0400 From: firstpe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Connelly Comments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Connelly - I think you are very well thought out in your arguments and demeanor. Just something to think about. If you want specifics and such as you indicated to Mr. Hilland, it would then become JP bashing if the evidence would show something negative to the contrary. It would probably just be suffice it to say that many individuals have had a variety of dealings with him that are completely antithetical to what you have experienced. It is possible that you are right and a majority of people outside of the ICHF are wrong. However, it is also very possible that his history may be pot-marked with purchased rank and "extremely" liberal time-in-grade requirements. Although I noted from an earlier post that you mentioned your long involvement with him and how positive it was and how you found him, you must understand that a variety of people over the last 10-15 years have had completely the opposite reaction. Not sure what this means, but you must give this at least some attention. This means something significant, even if it doesn't mean what you think we are all alluding to. Respectfully, Jeff --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:47:19 -0500 From: Dave Zapencki To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [The_Dojang] When Governments get involved Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Here's a prime example of what happens when governments get involved in martial arts... Dave Zapencki ============================================================================ TAEKWONDO: Shattered dreams S. Selvam Aug 24, 2005 MAYBE it was the familiarity and security of seeing their family members. Maybe it was the sheer relief of returning home after an embarrassing ordeal. Maybe it was because of dashed hopes and broken dreams. For some, their dreams of becoming Asian champions were shattered, for others, it was merely the honour of representing Malaysia in an international competition. Even torn ligaments and broken bones did little to break or dampen the spirit of the 14 Bukit Jalil Sports School students who wanted to represent the country. But at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport yesterday, the tears flowed freely as the Asian Junior Taekwondo Championships squad returned with team officials from Almaty, Kazakhstan. All because the team were barred from competing in the championships by the organisers because no Malaysian authority informed the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) that the Malaysian Taekwondo Association (MTA) had been de-registered. SAD, ANGRY AND IN TEARS: Several team members in tears on arrival at the KLIA yesterday. Initially given the go-ahead to compete, the national team were informed after they arrived in Almaty that they could not compete because the team did not go through the national association, the MTA. However, there is no national association as the MTA had been de-registered by Sports Commissioner Tan Sri Elyas Omar on May 6 for hindering the development of the sport in the country. "My son took up the sport when he was five. He was a silver medallist in the last championships two years ago and had a very good chance of returning with the gold. But they didn’t even let him compete," said Chong Wah Yin about his son, Ryan. "He broke his wrist last year but still insisted on pursuing taekwondo. He is good in other sports as well but he always comes back to taekwondo. This was his last Asian Junior championships as he would be overage for the next one. Why are our children made to suffer?" For Koh Jen Li, 17, it was the same. "I was advised not to go because both my ankles were injured. But I told my mom that if I took good care of myself, I would be able to pull through," said Jen Li. "I also went for physiotherapy twice a day and after seeing the other exponents in Kazakhstan, I believe I could have won the gold. I’m sad and frustrated because we trained so hard and went all the way there and couldn’t fight." However, amid the tears, anger and frustration, the 14 exponents were resolute on one matter — the desire to fight for the country is greater than ever, a desire that will not be diminished by anybody. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest