Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:42:53 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #418 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Fireman's Carry (Brian Beach) 2. Re: ITF or WTF (Jeremy Anderson) 3. Fireman carry (James Allison) 4. RE: Fireman carry (Stovall, Craig) 5. Re: Fireman carry (aburrese@aol.com) 6. Drills and Another Question (Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)) 7. RE: Re: Fireman carry (michael tomlinson) 8. Fireman's carry (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 9. RE: RE: Fireman carry (michael tomlinson) 10. RE: Fireman's carry in Hapkido (Howard Spivey) 11. fireman carry (Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com) 12. ITF or WTF continued conversation (ryanmcpherson@bellsouth.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Brian Beach Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:21:26 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fireman's Carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We also teach regular and reverse. I prefer the reverse for reasons per Mr. Tomlinson's post. Brian On Oct 18, 2005, at 6:01 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > How many of you teach the fireman > carry as part of your class curriculum? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:08:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ITF or WTF To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know, I keep hearing this over and over again. And it's still totally not true. If you take WTF sparring as the end-all be-all of practical self-defense, then you *are* going to get creamed. No doubts there. If you take it as a *drill* -- as it's meant to be taken -- then there are valueable lessons in there. Particularly, footwork and the utility of getting out of the way of an attack, distancing, circling (versus linear) motion, reaction time/speed, and confidence under stress. As an instructor myself, I often teach WTF style sparring for these very reasons. Then I translate them into more practical drills and applications ("hands-up, anything-goes" style sparring). As a student in a more "practical" style TKD school, I often frustrate my more "practical" styled opponents because they can't get in on me. I dance around the edge of our ranges and when they step in for a strike I pop them with one (or more) of my own. Often I keep my hands down just to taunt them. Translate that into a real-life experience. I was at a party and this guy was drunk and belligerent and decided he wanted to take me down. Knowing I was at a safe distance, I kept my hands down in an effort to not antagonize him further. He stepped in with a left jab, right haymaker combo. With the first punch I popped him in the belly with a side kick to stop his momentum, the faded to the right to avoid the haymaker and swept his lead foot. Down he went and home I went. Perfect application of unhelpful WTF sparring. *Any* drill taken in isolation is inadequate for proper self-defense training. But the drill is just that: a drill. And meant to be used in conjunction with other drills to build the greater whole that is self-defense. Jeremy Anderson. --- sam saenz wrote: > There is no way that WTF sparring would be in anyway > helpful in a real life confrontation, unless the > practioner is extemely fast, but even then, they are > at high risk. > Just my opinion. > > Sam Saenz > IV Dan > United Martial Arts Society > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "James Allison" To: Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:13:05 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fireman carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Corchado, We teach the Fireman carry style throw in both our Sun Moo Kwan and Sin Moo Hapkido Curriculum. We have about 5 versions that we teach. The Judo version which does not involve a joint and 4 hapkido versions. Respectfully yours in Hapkido, James Allison --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:36:03 -0500 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fireman carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Sounds like something to help liven up a Saturday night there. Care to elaborate on these "high 8 techniques" for those of us not in the know? Sounds intriguing. Thanks! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:47:07 -0400 From: aburrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fireman carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for HapKiDo instructors. How many of you teach the fireman carry as part of your class curriculum? The reason I ask is because of all the HapKiDo instructional videos that I own the only organizations that I see teaching this technique is HanMuDo & KukSool. Thank you in advance for your help. Joe Corchado ********************************* Joe, We do several variations of the fireman carry throw. The first two are taught at white belt as two of the 8 throws taught at that level. These two both start with a same side wrist grab for teaching purposes. If the right wrist is grabbed, the first technique is to do an escape/switch where you are then grabbing his arm with your left hand, and you step in with your right foot, and execute the throw. The second technique if he grabbed your right wrist is to reverse his grab so you are holding him with your right hand and you step in with your left foot to execute the throw. Hope you can picture this, it would be a lot easier to illustrate with pictures or video. :-) Later on there are fireman carry throws from different attacks. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:14:42 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChP/TEF8)" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Drills and Another Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Anderson; Your comment below (if read carefully) can resolve most of the back and forth about self defense that we have on this forum. What I find valuable about this forum is the "drills" that you hear about. It gives me endless "drills" that can only help me with my "self defense". Now the only thing I want to add to my TKD self defense tools is Hapkido. What I mean by that is studying the full art of Hapkido not just learning self defense "drills" based from Hapkido. If I can't get Hapkido here in Charleston, SC I may go the Aikido route. Does anyone know a particular style of Aikido that closely resembles Hapkido other than Aikijujitsu? I have not been able to find any Aikijujitsu dojos in the US for that matter. Anyhow, I continue to study TKD and will always study it as it is the art that got me hooked on MA. But I definitely want to study a KI art such as Hapkido or Aikido if I can find one close by. Brian D. Woodard *Any* drill taken in isolation is inadequate for proper self-defense training. But the drill is just that: a drill. And meant to be used in conjunction with other drills to build the greater whole that is self-defense. Jeremy Anderson. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Fireman carry Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:34:05 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cool thing I've noticed already about this subject is that the fireman's and reverse firemans are practiced by some guys who study with the old school Grandmasters..or their orgs. : for instance.. Brian Beach is with GM Jin Pal Kim who is one of the original hardcore Hapkido players from the old KHA.. Alain studies with the KHF through some old school Grandmasters in Korea, James Allison is from the old school KHA and Sin Moo schools...I kind of see a trend here...cool stuff. Michael Tomlinson >From: aburrese@aol.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fireman carry >Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:47:07 -0400 > >I have a question for HapKiDo instructors. How many of you teach the >fireman >carry as part of your class curriculum? The reason I ask is because of all >the HapKiDo instructional videos that I own the only organizations that I >see teaching this technique is HanMuDo & KukSool. > >Thank you in advance for your help. > >Joe Corchado > >********************************* > >Joe, > >We do several variations of the fireman carry throw. The first two are >taught at white belt as two of the 8 throws taught at that level. These >two both start with a same side wrist grab for teaching purposes. If the >right wrist is grabbed, the first technique is to do an escape/switch where >you are then grabbing his arm with your left hand, and you step in with >your right foot, and execute the throw. The second technique if he grabbed >your right wrist is to reverse his grab so you are holding him with your >right hand and you step in with your left foot to execute the throw. Hope >you can picture this, it would be a lot easier to illustrate with pictures >or video. :-) > >Later on there are fireman carry throws from different attacks. > >Yours in Training, >Alain > >www.burrese.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 13:32:38 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Fireman's carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Tomlinson wrote: >I personally teach four variations of the firemans carry and five versions of the reverse firemans carry.. My reply: Interesting! I teach fireman's carry and reverse fireman's carry as well (the latter seems to be the classic Daito-ryu aikijujutsu pose). What are your 4/5 variations Michael? I see so far: Fireman's carry: 1. "Close to a free style wrestling technique which is a takedown all the way": Does that mean falling backward with the guy, or flipping him like one would in kata guruma? 2. 3. 4. "Basically breaks the neck and crushes the groin on the upsweep" So, groin grab on upsweep (crush the testicles) and then dump him on his head over your shoulder? Sort of like in the Sangmukwan version of the bow block in Palgwe 4? That's one the Danzan-ryu guys under Sig Kufferath did too. And what are "high 8 techniques?" Thanks, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Fireman carry Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:42:19 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, whadup....let's see if I can give you a run down on Ji's high 8 techniques...fiirst of all over the years they have changed a little bit..but that's cool...a real artist no matter what the medium will occasionally change or add things... here are the high 8 as was taught to me by Doju Nim Ji and Yung T. Freda about 7 years ago... 1] LOW ARM BAR 2] ARM BAR, SLIDE TO THUMB, ASSISTED SHOULDER 3] REVERSE FIREMANS THROW BETWEEN LEGS 4] REVERSE FIREMANS THROW BEHIND LEGS 5] ELBOW BREAKING WRIST THROW 6] ELBOW BREAKING WRIST WITH FIREMANS BETWEEN LEGS 7] UPWARD WRIST AND ARM BREAK 8] KNEE TO ELBOW ARM BAR as you can see there is a couple of versions of reverse firemans...when the technique states between or behind legs it is talking about your stepping to the opponents body parts...these two verisons are brutal..the high 8 concept is that you move so fast and fluidly that there is no waste of body movement and you are using your body in the techniques everything is condensed and concentrated to the extreme...I know this is a crappy explanation but it is about impossible to lay it out in words..if you saw it you would totally understand it..the techniques are fast and dangerous and when you do them even at half to three quarter speed I have seen people get hurt...if you did any of these at full speed and knew what you are doing every one of these techniques would end up in at the very least compound fractures....anywho...they are still fun but kind of like playing with a blender without a lid on it....Michael Tomlinson >From: "Stovall, Craig" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fireman carry >Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:36:03 -0500 > ><<Sin > >Moo Hapkido curriculum, with the more severe versions falling in the >"high 8 > >techniques" which are quite brutal and scary but a lot of fun to >learn...>>> > > > >Sounds like something to help liven up a Saturday night there. Care to >elaborate on these "high 8 techniques" for those of us not in the know? >Sounds intriguing. Thanks! >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:33:19 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fireman's carry in Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Re Joe Corchado's question about whether this technique appears in other Hapkido styles... Joe, it's a formal technique (for 1st gup) in our style, done off a same-side wrist grab. We have two basic variations. In the first, we kneel on the far knee as we finish the throw. In the second, we do the throw from a fully standing position. Most people instinctively think the standing version is worse to take, but dropping to one knee as you execute the throw can really accelerate the opponent's fall. Take care... --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Hapkidoman5@wmconnect.com Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:54:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] fireman carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My school uses this technique ,but i don't know if we teach it just as you do?but it is something very adaptable for differing body types.I think several groups use it but none come to mind. k carter --__--__-- Message: 12 From: To: Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:59:01 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF or WTF continued conversation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was just curious as to what styles most folks were practicing and I didn't know the conversation was going to branch out as it did. First and foremost allow me to say that I wasn't jumping on any political issues. I understand that there has been some bad blood(for lack of a better term) between the two sides, and I'm sure this list has probably seen its share of arguments for both sides. I am currently training in WTF under master Woo Sup kim. I choose his school after visiting the other schools in the area and seeing classes first hand. Master Kim's staff was exceptional, his facilities were top notch, and by comparison his students trained harder than the other schools in the area. If I'm going to get the most out of a martial art, I want to train at a school that will push me, and after 2 years with Master Kim I've learned that his staff has a knack for knowing just how hard to push, and when the right moment for backing off is. I have since learned that Master Kim was a 3 time Korean national champion and captian of the "Korean Tigers", the Korean national team. Our school just hosted the Korean Tigers this past weekend and I will soon have many .mov files if anyone is interested. (email me off list at z32tx2@hotmail.com) As far as the sparring with hands down is concerned, I have noticed this in plenty of competitions. Our school teaches to keep your hands up. In the tournaments that I have participated in, I would say over half of the other competitors kept their hands down to their side. The only real advantage I could see from doing this was that some people will move their hands before switching their stance or kicking or both. I thought maybe those that kept their hands down were prone to telegraphing their move with their hands, so they made an effort to keep them down. My opinion on the issue of sparring as opposed to real life fighting is that I don't think any ammount or style of sparring will prepare you for a real fight. Most fights aren't stand up, toe to toe anyhow. Most come when someone grabs some one else, or jumps on them, etc. I really think its a combination of both sparring and self defense techniques. Whether those be from Hapkido or other sources. You can't focus on one or the other. You have to do it all to be successful in a real life situation. My $.02, hope I don't get flamed. =) Ryan McPherson --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest