Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 14:50:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #420 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Fireman carry (United HapKiDo Academy) 2. martial arts is as martial arts does (Tkdsid@aol.com) 3. Fireman's carry (Brian Beach) 4. Hands Down Sparring (Don Ross) 5. Re: ITF / WTF (tkdgalsamm@aol.com) 6. Re: Re: ITF / WTF (Ray) 7. Dan Numbers (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. what I think (michael tomlinson) 9. Black belt instructor/murder suspect (Janet Lundquist) 10. GM Timmerman on techniques (Christopher Spiller) 11. RE: RE: Fireman's carry in Hapkido (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "United HapKiDo Academy" To: "'Dojang Digest'" Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 01:48:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fireman carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I will like to thank “Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Beach, Mr. Allison, Mr. Stovall, Mr. Burrese and Mr. Spivey” for replying. I didn’t know that there were 8 ways to do the fireman carry. I know only 2 variations kneeling and standing. I curios to the ones you have describe I wish that there were pictures so I can visualize the technique. Is good to see that is still thought at your Dojangs. Thank you again for your replies. Joe Corchado _____ I've stopped 104 spam and fraud messages. You can too! One month FREE spam and fraud protection at HYPERLINK "http://www.cloudmark.com/sigs?rc="www.cloudmark.com HYPERLINK "http://www.cloudmark.com/sigs?rc="Cloudmark Desktop - Join the fight against spam! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 10/19/2005 [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:57:53 -0400 From: Tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] martial arts is as martial arts does Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --I've read many interesting postings on martial arts techniques. Those that interested me most are in the martial arts I know least about. For example Kuk Sool and Hwa Rang Do. As I reflect however, I am sobered by the fact that my favorite tv show is the ultimate fighting challenge. Most fighters refer to themselves as mixed martial artists. It appears to me that Jiu Jitsu, heavily peppered with blunt fist pounding appears to be the "technique" used most. As a kukki taekwondoist I note that I have rarely seen tae kwondo technique. Isn't then the Ultimate Fighting Style the "best" martial art as it appears the thing people most frequently revert to in a serious fight? Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Brian Beach Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:11:38 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fireman's carry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes - Actually the way I hear it told Kano added Kata gruma after observing western wrestling, so Fireman's carry is more accurate. :P Brian On Oct 20, 2005, at 6:01 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > this firemans carry---are you referring to the judo technique of > katagrama? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Don Ross" To: "dojang_digest" Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:00:30 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hands Down Sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My $ .02: - Yes, sparring can be a useful 'drill'. - Yes, 'competition' does give you the opportunity to work with a resisting, mobile opponent vs. step sparring. - Yes, competition can give a taste of the stress and adrenaline of real life self-defense, but not duplicate the real thing. However, under stress, people respond the way they train - the brain goes onto auto-pilot. So if you simulate empty hand self defense in training and/or competition sparring with your hands down, the odds are you will do the same when the fan spits feces. Per Col. Jeff Cooper, "Competition is the most competent evaluator of technique, but only if it is relevant to the goals the technique seeks to achieve." So if your goal is competition, trophies, medals, 'sport', then hands down sparring may work for you. If your goal is self defense, perhaps ingraining a perpetual guarding block mindset will better serve. And nobody has said you MUST keep your hands down during competitive sparring. pil seung, Don Ross "You are only as good a fighter as your last technique, and you are only as good a warrior as the last promise you kept." -Bruce Sims --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:46:50 -0400 From: tkdgalsamm@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF / WTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't post much either, however several years ago, in sparing a WTF guy, they were not allowed punches to the head. His instructor knew full well I always punch to the head and face area (ESPECIALLY with a black belt) because he's seen me spar, however he didn't tell me about this rule prior to sparing his student. He did this on purpose to see how his student would do. Honestly, the student seemed totally surprised at me hitting him in the head and was unable to defend it as I nailed him time after time. I have excellent control so his student was in good shape, despite being a bit confused. That being said, I too agree whole heartedly that sparing is nothing more than a game of tag. BUT it does help tremendously in self defense in that it is excellent for endurance, focus, balance and a whole host of things that help with self defense. The only TKD school that's anywhere around me doesn't teach self defense, they teach sparing. I'm older now, and I have absolutely no urge to spar, or kick a heavy bag with all my might ... I like my knees just the way they are. My 2 cents ... Respectfully, Loretta <<<<<<<<<<< To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ITF or WTF Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:38:18 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Beware, list lurker speaking out: I learn WTF tkd and have never been told to spar with my hands down. That, to me, seems somewhat ridiculous. How can you prevent a kick to the head or even the chest with your hands down? I have also been taught repeatedly that sparring in a tournament is completely different than what could happen on the street. We are trained to deal with both, and sparring is just a game. Sparring is not realistic self-defense. It would be idiotic to play by sparring rules in a street fight (??). That just seems like common sense to me. I don't know much about ITF, I've only done WTF. But I've attended two tkd schools and both taught hands up in sparring. Janie, 1st Dan>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF / WTF To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Honestly, the student seemed totally surprised at me hitting him in the > head and was unable to defend it as I nailed him time after time. I had a similar experience back in the dark ages. I had just switched from TSD to TKD and was sparring a TKD dan. Each time I popped him in the head with a backfist he would say, "You can't do that". I'm thinking, what do you mean I can't do that, I just did. So I'd do it again. Again he'd say, "You can't do that". I'm thinking, the heck I can't, I just did, and I did it farily easily. :) Anyway after this went on for some time it was finally explained to me that I was breaking the TKD rules, and then "You can't do that" made more sense... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:38:14 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All Recently someone ask about some early Moo Duk Kwan members, and the legitamacy of some dan numbers. I did a little research, because one of my students ask me to trace his linage back to Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee. He had trained in the Moo Duk Kwan years ago before enrolling at my school. During my search I found the dan numbers that were being ask about. Thomas Littlefield dan number #8907 Herman Beal dan number #8908 This person was said to have trained under Master Kyo Sung (John) Chu although I can find no record of Master Chu teaching up in the Northern USA. IF anyone as some information that would be great. Herman Beal was born in 1933 Mark Camillo dan number #21580 Arnold Lee dan number #21919 born 3-17-44 All of the above numbers were issued by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim, none of them are active in the Moo Duk Kwan organization that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim founded. Michael Wolfe dan number #37052 I could not find. He is most likley a member of another organization, and his number was most likley not issued by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. I could be wrong, but I feel very confident that I am not. Duane Schmidt dan number 45117 is for sure not a number issued under ther founder Hwang Kee's organization Moo Duk Kwan. Hwang Kee KJN issued numbers until 2002. Since then HC Hwang KJN has issued the numbers per the request in writting of Hwang Kee KJN. The last number issued was #43807. So Mr. Schmidts number is not related to the founder of Moo Duk Kwan or his organization. I hope this helps JC Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:16:32 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] what I think Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know I have given this a lot of thought over the years...you are right...when push comes to shove it seems that people "revert" to a certain level of techniques...there are the exceptions to the rules but I know exactly where you are coming from. There is definately a visual common denominator of techniques that you see occuring over and over....my theory is this: in the old days if you study the history of the Greeks, the Samurai and early Chinese warrior arts you will notice that there was very little fragmentation in the martial arts...it was all about surviving by killing. Back then the more you knew the longer you lived. I believe the fragmentation and specificity that exists today would of gotten you killed very quickly back then. That fragmentation is a modern day thing and therein lies the problem when you see todays UFC or MMA competitions. For example..tkd uses mostly kicks..judo uses mostly throws.. wrestling uses mostly ground techniques...etc.etc...I am not bashing these arts guys.. in the modern day martial arts world everything is branched off...kickers like to kick...strikers like to strike...grapplers like to grapple...ad infitum...BUT in the old days when training was for survival you didn't have the luxury to just kick or to just throw or to Just do just one thing...you HAD to cover all ranges and weapons and techniques because it was life or death....and IMHO that is the big white light at the end of the tunnel that people forget...99 percent of all martial artists today are not training for a real killing existence so we have the luxury to not do certain things in training....BUT when you step into a ring with a NHB fighting mentality you will notice that the prepared fighter does know how to strike, kick, grapple, choke, lift weights, and many many other things that would keep him alive for real...therein lies the riddle....if you train only to enjoy some fun and exercise there is nothing wrong with that at all...but don't kid yourself that you would just pluck someones eye out or rip their groin off in a REAL fight....it won't happen...But if we were in the old days you would surely train harder and in more depth to survive automatically because you wouldn't have that false sense of security. Michael Tomlinson >From: Tkdsid@aol.com >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] martial arts is as martial arts does >Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 06:57:53 -0400 > >--I've read many interesting postings on martial arts techniques. Those >that interested me most are in the martial arts I know least about. For >example Kuk Sool and Hwa Rang Do. As I reflect however, I am sobered by the >fact that my favorite tv show is the ultimate fighting challenge. Most >fighters refer to themselves as mixed martial artists. It appears to me >that Jiu Jitsu, heavily peppered with blunt fist pounding appears to be the >"technique" used most. As a kukki taekwondoist I note that I have rarely >seen tae kwondo technique. Isn't then the Ultimate Fighting Style the >"best" martial art as it appears the thing people most frequently revert to >in a serious fight? > >Sid >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Janet Lundquist To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black belt instructor/murder suspect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fugitive task force arrests murder suspect in Iowa Associated Press MINNEAPOLIS - The Minnesota Fugitive Task Force has arrested a murder suspect who has been on the run for six years. Sidney Hines is charged with second-degree murder in the 1999 shooting death of 18-year-old Charles Caldwell. Caldwell was shot four times in an apartment building in Minneapolis. Authorities found Hines in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, living under the assumed name of Tim Hicks. Hines was working as a taekwondo instructor. Hines as a blackbelt instructor and authorities believe he was living in Iowa for at least three years. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:10:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Timmerman on techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Timmerman said: >>I personally do not care for them because of my size; however, I never drop techniques because they do not suit my body style. So, they are still part and parcel of Kong Shin Bup as well.<< This is some of the best news I have heard in a long time and just want to congratulate GM Timmerman. While it seems to have become increasingly common for instructors to jettison techniques because they are "unrealistic" or "ineffective on the street" I often wonder if it's not more a matter of a technique being ill fitted for a certain body type, the instructor not putting the necessary time in to master it, or some other reason. I'm all for people founding their own styles and doing research about what works and what doesn't, but kudos to GM Timmerman for realizing what is not suitable for one person may, in fact, be just what the doctor ordered for another person. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Fireman's carry in Hapkido Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:00:38 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net it is interesting reading about you Hapkido guys and your throws. as a student of TKD I don't do many throws at all. this of course will not come as a suprise to many of you. however I was reading recently about knee spring and REACTION FORCE. I felt in theory reaction force can be used in close quarters to throw someone. I put this theory to the test last night in a senior judo class. I was pleased to see that the principle worked an that in fact judo players use reaction force in their throws very effectively. regards Peter RULDS2? **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest