Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:07:20 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #457 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 2000 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Wall Climbing (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 2. RE: Hapkiyusul video clip (Howard Spivey) 3. Re: Garrison's Hapkido (Kevin F. Donohue) 4. Re: Wall Climbing (Ray) 5. Re: From another group: TKD HKD schools? (Ray) 6. RE: RE: Hapkiyusul video clip (michael tomlinson) 7. Re: Wall Climbing (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: From another group: TKD HKD schools? (michael tomlinson) 9. RE: Wall Climbing (Thomas Gordon) 10. Re: Wall Climbing (Ray) 11. Re: Plyometrics (Beungood8@aol.com) 12. Battle at the Boardwalk (ehsu514@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:23:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray and Gordon both mention wall climbing as part of the training within Sin Moo Hapkido and the NKMAA. My questions is "why"? Why is it a requirement to climb a wall? This is confusing to me. I would just like some clarification on why this is so. What is the reasoning? During my year in Korea the only martial artists I saw climbing walls during their training was ROK soldiers during obstacle courses. Just curious... Thanks James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:13:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkiyusul video clip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain wrote: "...One thing I did not like was how the person would go down on both knees quite often, and his feet were flat as he was down there. It is very, very rare that I ever have both knees down, and with each example where he did have both knees on the ground, I would never have been like that, but would have had one knee down and one up. (and a knee pinning some part of your opponents body to the ground is considered down, so the other should be up.) I also always have what we call live toes. I never have the top of my foot flat on the mat like in this clip. I know GM West teaches this same way, because we discussed it one time in Jackson and he went over to a person who had his foot flat on the floor and step on it. And I'm not saying my way is better, just different..." Hello Alain, What follows is, like your comments, just an observation. No judgment being passed here on the effectiveness of the techniques in the clip, although I did like them. As probably all of us know, Hapkido is said to derive from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. In the first 30 techniques of Daito Ryu (Ikkajo) as formalized by Takeda Tokimune and taught by Kondo sensei, there are several techniques in which the defender ends up on both knees. In all of them, the attacker is pinned to the ground, fully under control and about to receive a final strike. If I'm not mistaken, some of these techniques begin with the defender in a kneeling position. I'm pretty sure that I've read posts by Master Allen elsewhere that note that their GM makes trips to Japan and trains in DRAJJ. (I believe that Master Allen is the defender in the clip, but I might be wrong.) Perhaps what we're seeing in the clip is some direct influence from DRAJJ. Regards, Howard --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:27:12 -0500 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Garrison's Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I agree with your statement. But in later interviews he referred to his teachings prior to WWII as being Aikido... he did not differentiate as it being Aiki-Jutsu or DRAJJ etc...., so maybe the lower level techniques were pretty much the same (just a guess). Maybe we should refer to it as O-Sensei's teachings before or after his move to Iwama and not WWII (Most Americans think of WWII as starting in 1941 since thats when our involvement officially started...yet in Asia it started with the 1931invasion of Manchuria and invading China in 1937 by Japan) . Prior to his move the system had been referred to as Aiki-Jutsu, Aikinomichi or Aiki-budo, and was still more a martial art rather than a spiritual path for self improvement. After 1942 Ueshiba perfected the techniques and the religious philosophy of what we now know to be Aikido or a term that I hate "modern" Aikido. Kevin F. Donohue Ray wrote: >>O-Sensei claims to have taught Aikido at Japan's Naval Accademy as early >>as 1927 or 1928. So Aikido did exist as an art before WWII. >> >> > >I'm sure that Ueshiba taught his martial art there and else where, but he >was not calling it Aikido prior to 1942 (or 1943). Prior to that he used >the terms Aikibudo or Aikinomichi. > >But then a rose by any other name... > >Lots of good info @ aikidofaq.com and also aikidojournal.com. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:59:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray and Gordon both mention wall climbing as part of the training within Sin > Moo Hapkido and the NKMAA. My questions is "why"? Special ninja training... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another group: TKD HKD schools? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:21:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > To be able to tell the difference. Take a look at the kicking techniques. > Hapkido kicks are always straight leg kicks (for kicks that apply... like > crescent kicks, hook kicks, rising kicks etc). Umm, no, not really. Hapkido kicks are not -always- straight leg kicks. e.g. sidekick, roundhouse, pushing kick, etc. are not straight leg kicks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkiyusul video clip Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 23:18:16 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I kind of see both sides here..I have some old videos of DRAJJ Anniversary Demonstrations at their HQ's and in these videos several of the old masters are demonstrating their techniques and a lot of them end up with both knees on the ground and then do this pseudo chicken wing lock or a ritualized final downward chopping motion...I also know several Aikido guys and when I go watch them practice they also do this same type of follow up technique on the ground....I have a feeling that the techniques we see in the video are an offshoot of that kind of tradition...I know there are some styles of Hapkido that have a strong Aikido-DRAJJ type of movement and flair......such as Hoi Jeon Moo Sool and International Hapkido Federation to mention two. that being said I agree with Alain about the techniques,, coming from the old KHA curriculum through Master Hal Whalen (up to 3rd dan), and then studying with Doju Nim Ji (4th and 5th dan), I am also from the side of the coin that does not put both knees on the ground...we put one knee on the opponents body, usually the ribcage, neck or armpit or one shin on the opponents armpit or neck, or we squat with both feet still on the ground also to get leverage to pull up in a cleaning movement to break the wrist..while in transition from having one shin on the ribs and one on the neck...again I'm not saying "right or wrong here" I just see the two sides of the coin...I think Alain comes from Korean Masters that are from the KHF and old KHA, and like me he practices the "less" ritualized and more street orientated version set forth by the old KHA....I believe the old KHA curriculum is less big circles and more blunt smaller arcing motions....just two sides of the same nickel IMHO....but that nickel can be cashed in by everyone... Michael Tomlinson >From: "Howard Spivey" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkiyusul video clip >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 11:13:57 -0500 > >Alain wrote: > >"...One thing I did not like was how the person would go down on both knees >quite often, and his feet were flat as he was down there. It is very, very >rare that I ever have both knees down, and with each example where he did >have both knees on the ground, I would never have been like that, but would >have had one knee down and one up. (and a knee pinning some part of your >opponents body to the ground is considered down, so the other should be >up.) >I also always have what we call live toes. I never have the top of my foot >flat on the mat like in this clip. I know GM West teaches this same way, >because we discussed it one time in Jackson and he went over to a person >who >had his foot flat on the floor and step on it. > >And I'm not saying my way is better, just different..." > >Hello Alain, > >What follows is, like your comments, just an observation. No judgment >being >passed here on the effectiveness of the techniques in the clip, although I >did like them. > >As probably all of us know, Hapkido is said to derive from Daito Ryu >Aikijujutsu. > >In the first 30 techniques of Daito Ryu (Ikkajo) as formalized by Takeda >Tokimune and taught by Kondo sensei, there are several techniques in which >the defender ends up on both knees. In all of them, the attacker is pinned >to the ground, fully under control and about to receive a final strike. If >I'm not mistaken, some of these techniques begin with the defender in a >kneeling position. > >I'm pretty sure that I've read posts by Master Allen elsewhere that note >that their GM makes trips to Japan and trains in DRAJJ. (I believe that >Master Allen is the defender in the clip, but I might be wrong.) > >Perhaps what we're seeing in the clip is some direct influence from DRAJJ. > >Regards, Howard >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 23:21:19 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net these techniques are basically done to run up a wall and then spring off of them to do a kick....anywho that is my experience with them.... Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 09:59:21 -0800 (PST) > > > Ray and Gordon both mention wall climbing as part of the training within >Sin > > Moo Hapkido and the NKMAA. My questions is "why"? > >Special ninja training... :) > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another group: TKD HKD schools? Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 23:23:02 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net agreed Ray... as a rule of thumb a lot of the Hapkido kicks have the knee kind of slightly bent and the whole leg is thrown at once....Michael Tomlinson >From: Ray >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] From another group: TKD HKD schools? >Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 10:21:29 -0800 (PST) > > > To be able to tell the difference. Take a look at the kicking >techniques. > > Hapkido kicks are always straight leg kicks (for kicks that apply... >like > > crescent kicks, hook kicks, rising kicks etc). > >Umm, no, not really. Hapkido kicks are not -always- straight leg kicks. >e.g. sidekick, roundhouse, pushing kick, etc. are not straight leg kicks. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 2000 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:53:11 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Morgan, When preparing for a rather difficult exam, the instructor gave us a test asking some really odd questions such as: How far can a dog run into the woods? If there are three apples and you take away two, how many do you have? You have two US coins equaling $0.55. One is NOT a nickel. What are the coins? The clerk in the butcher shop is 6' tall. What does he weigh? Moses took how many animals of each sex onto the ark? There's a hole 2' wide x 2' across x 2' deep. How much dirt is in the hole? I looked at this test and said, "For the love of everything holy....WHY?!?!" Thirty questions?!?! Didn't this guy know we had a REAL test waiting for us that was going to be REAL hard?!?! He's wasting our TIME which was pretty darn precious. This had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. I groaned and took the test....I got many right...didn't have a clue on some. When we got done, the teacher said the test was to make us think outside the normal realm. I agree....he was very abnormal. :) Funny thing though, when I can't figure something out, I often think back to these dumb questions and realize the answers aren't always as hard as I make it out to be. So, the instructor was able to accomplish his goal. Much like the test above, I think we've all hit "walls" along the way in our martial art training. Grandmaster Timmerman can certainly answer for himself, but I think "the wall" is to push people further than they've been pushed, do things they never thought they could do (or maybe never thought of doing), think through a formable problems that we all face from time to time (12' wall is pretty daunting), help encourage team work (through encouragement/support), and perhaps just a taste of self actualization. If that isn't answer enough, I'll go with Master Terry's answer..."Ninja training." LOL! Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Wall Climbing To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 17:04:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > these techniques are basically done to run up a wall and then spring off of > them to do a kick....anywho that is my experience with them.... Gm Ji also has you literally climbing walls in Sin Moo. :) Of course you need a place in the dojang where this can be done, i.e. a wall with enough space between the top of the wall and the ceiling for one to be able to climb up and onto the top portion of the wall structure. And then you "spider down" the wall, back to floor level. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:49:30 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Plyometrics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/16/2005 11:00:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Plyometrics are not as simple as just jumping over a heavy bag laid on the floor. There is quite a bit of controversy over whether the results justify the potential for short-term injury and even long-term damage to body structures. We use them in our warm-ups before we perfrom kicking drills. They will add explosiveness and strength to your arsenal. They are safe as long as you perform then slowly and stick with proper form. And above all else dont land stiff legged! Enjoy! Jack --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 22:54:06 -0500 From: ehsu514@aol.com To: Ehsu514@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Battle at the Boardwalk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GHK Enterprises Presents... 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